Identifying how many cars with my options
 

Hi All,

I read articles online where folks talk about their cars being 1 of 15 with these colors/options or 1 of 2 built...

How do I go about finding out how many were made with my options and colors?

I read an article that said there were only 60 4- speed convertible GTO’s built in 1965. I can’t believe that’s accurate...

Thanks

The data which tells us how many hardtops or convertibles with a particular engine or transmission does exist, but there is very little information on specific color or option production numbers. This was destroyed by Pontiac years ago, although there are few memos or bits of information that has been discovered over the years. Years ago there was an internal memo that discussed their surprise that 23% of 68 GTOs were Verdoro Green.
I have always wondered this too because my 68 GTO is a Springmist Green 4 speed convertible with bench seat. I was told when I bought it in 1984 from the original owner's niece that her uncle had won it in a contest. From photos I do know that several Springmist green GTOs including some with bench seats that were given away by Hurst. I wish I had paid better attention to her but I was 21 and could have cared less what she was telling me.

The whole "1 of xx" thing has gotten blown way out of proportion as of late.

Originally reserved for very special cars (like 2 ZL1 Corvettes, or 6 1963 Tempest/Lemans SD coupes and 6 wagons), the numbers derived from diligent study by historians in the know.

The number of '62 and '63 SD Pontiacs produced was the result of the original Pontiac historian, Fred Simmonds, digging through tens of thousands of invoices in file cabinets and counting one by one. We all owe him a debt of gratitude, but unless a specific combination has enough interest to support that kind of effort is it not going to be pursued.

Nowadays everybody has a "1 of xx". I saw a Marti report that show a Mustang as "the only blue car ordered with the factory block heater". :rolleyes: The number of ways to combine the available options is astronomical. I even heard one enthusiast say (jokingly, I'm sure) his car was the only car with that VIN.

Nonetheless - PHS shows 11,311 '65 GTO convertibles built. The split between manual and auto trans, in general, was 56,378 manual vs 18,974 auto, or about 75% manual and 25% auto.

Applying that split to the number of GTO convertibles would result in about 8,483 GTO Convertibles built for the '65 model year with a manual trans, the vast majority of those being 4 speeds (as opposed to 3 speeds).

K

In most cases those claims will be Ford or Mopar products - or very rare special examples where their small production numbers are documented.


First, you have to buy a Ford or Mopar
Second, pay money for their special independent report.

It's not accurate - at all.

Sounds like you have a 65 GTO Convertible with a 4spd
Congrats and welcome to PY Forum :welcome:

There aren't many detailed breakdowns on 65 GTO beyond engine combo breakdowns - and body style breakdowns. But not both in cross reference to each other.
Options /Colors breakdowns are non-existent for 65 GTO

Here is a thread about 65 GTO Convertible Registry (3x2 4spd) on this site in the 64-65 Section
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=650449

Ha!

A high price, indeed.

K

Struck a chord with me. Excuse me in advance for the 'hijack'.
My uncle (about same age as me) is also a car guy. IIRC an early Barracuda convertible. Whenever we talk about cars he always bring up that his is 1 of 1600,blah, blah, blah. However, he has made minor mods, like intake, carb and others. I wanted to tell him it's now a 1 of 1, or no longer a 1 of 1600, but I let it go as an argument isn't worth the effort.

"Of late?" It's been ridiculous for 20+ years, Ford & Mopar enthusiasts just have found ways to shovel more cash at it.

Honestly, other than engine\trans combos and very special packages (the aforementioned SD cars, '69 Trans Am convertibles, etc) you'd be hard pressed to say anything with real accuracy about how many were made. And anything that says "less than Y survive!!" is a fallacy because once again, there's no way to know that outside of super rare limited number of cars (like all 8 '69 TA 'verts are accounted for). It's marketing and people trying to make their car more special than it is, when by just being here 50+ years later it's already special enough.

I don't need to know "1 of 3 cars with factory column shift bench seat 400-2bbl in espresso brown with power locks" to appreciate what I have. And it sure isn't going to make it any more valuable when I go to sell it unless I'm hunting for a sucker.

1 of 87,684 here! Don't get me wrong, I'd love something more exotic and unusual, but I feel like everyone tries so hard to make their car rare and special. I especially saw this with the '04-'06 GTO crowd. It is what it is, enjoy it.

Marti Reports have always cracked me up. 1 of 1 with herringbone textured floor mats, a rear cigarette lighter with a knurled knob, flocked console, red paint dabs on the left front spring, and the clutch pedal pad installed upside down built on March 10th, 1967 at 2:09pm.

My 1965 Bonneville 4DRHT is an export car built with a 421 HO Tri-power Automatic. All that is verified by the PHS information I ordered after I bought the car.

Now considering there were only (about) 1200 421 HO engines built in 1965, and about half were manual transmission cars and I assume a lot of these engine and trans combos went into GTO's, 2+2's, big car convertibles etc, I guess that not many 421 HO tri-power autos went into 4 door hardtops.

I was told years ago that my car combination is one of 6 of these cars built. 3 were exported as new cars (mine presumably is one of them), and 3 who knows where they went?? But only 6 in total? Hard to believe.

All that is a bit of fun to speculate on but without any hard evidence on the actual numbers built, the whole thought is pure speculation only.

My wife is ONE IN A MILLION !! :) (she's watching me right now)

My 65 GTO hardtop came with a four speed, 389 four barrel, power steering, power brakes, and a 3.23 safe-t-track. I'm pretty sure that's about as common a configuration as you can get for that year. Teal turquoise with an aqua interior, so it even has a popular color combo.

There are probably many more like mine! But this was my first car. There's no other car in the world that compares to it. My brother puked on me in this car, my dog jumped out of the window while I was driving it 35 mph, I used to street race it here and there, visited my grandfather in it many times, you name it. Wouldn't trade it for the rarest car in the world!

Getting back to the original question - according to John Gunnell's book 75 Years of Pontiac-Oakland, there were about 75,000 GTOs built in 1965. About 11,000 of those were convertibles. About 56,000 of all GTOs had manual transmissions (three or four speed.) Any further breakdown from that is probably not available.

Hope she’s not doing the math on that Johnny because you’re Really saying there’s roughly another 164 Other women to choose from in the US alone (roughly 328 million Americans assuming 1/2 are female)
:)

Yeh
1 of 7 sounds better than 1 in a million ... for some reason

:wife: :doh: ouch!

😂😂😂 thanks for the info and comedy guys. I knew I was coming to the right place with this question.

I tell my wife she’s one of one. She doesn’t know what I’m talking about but it makes her happy.

Interesting! Have you actually seen this document?

That might have been a typo
Seems like it was closer to 33%
lol :)

I'm a '64 GTO convertible fanatic. Can't speak to other makes but I've been answering this question for at least the past 20 years this way. First I mention that I much prefer to celebrate the commonality amongst all '64 Pontiac A bodies. I love to see them wherever and whenever. GTO or not. Convertible, Hardtop, post Coupe, 4 dr. sedan, wagon. No matter the color or trim. No matter the options. I love them all.

But if somebody wants to know how "unique" their particular '64 is, I can assure them that it is absolutely 1 of 1.

The math works the same regardless of the model. Percentages are my estimate, not official figures.

Example, there were 6,644 '64 GTO convertibles. About 75% were built with the base 4 bbl engine. So, that leaves 5000. About 60% were 4 spd (25% auto, 15% base 3 spd). Down to 3500.

In '64, there were 15 factory exterior paint colors. The most popular were 20%, least popular less than 5% (this is generally true and typically popular colors were continued, unpopular colors were replaced the following model year). I have documented at least 3 '64 GTOs in Special exterior paint but too few to impact the math.

My mythical GTO was a popular color. So now 700. Each exterior color was matched to at least 2 interior trim choices. Figure 80% in the more popular trim choice, so 560.

There were 2 different tire choices, Red Line and Whitewall. My records show that there was about a 50-50 split between the 2. So now my example is 1 of 280.

PMD offered the base hub caps plus 2 full wheel cover choices. Mid year, a 3rd full wheel cover factory option was added to the Order Form. Maybe 40% got the popular Deluxe full wheel cover. Now it's 1 of 110.

The Convertible had 6 different Top color choices. Black and White were the most popular. Figure 45% got the same Top color as my example. 1 of 50.

90% were non-AC builds. 1 of 45.

You see where this is going. I've hardly touched the Order Form Option List. You get the idea, you can extrapolate from here. PS, Quick Ratio Manual Steer, or base Manual Steer. PB or Manual Brakes. Safe-T-Track or base open Diff. HD or base Shocks.

If you can't get to 1 of 1 by regular options, consider the differences based on which of 4 Plants final assembled '64 A bodies. Or Time Built as running changes created differences between 2 nearly identical builds during any given Model Year.

I have a book on the history of Cadillac. At some point in the '60s Cadillac boasted that based on their production volume and wide array of options, they could go 3 years without ever building 2 identical Cadillacs.

Wasn't much different at Pontiac.

The math is why I think 1 of claims for mass produced cars is kinda silly. I get a lot more out of seeing another '64 Pontiac than I do out of the knowledge that there was likely never another '64 GTO identical to mine. And if there was, likely it hasn't survived based on attrition rates during the '60s and '70s.

Next time some Mopar guy brags that his car is 1 of 15, just smile and say, yeah, Mopars just weren't very popular back in the day, the "smart" money gearheads were buying GTOs. :D

John

You've just laid out the scenario that truly shows how easy it is to be able to make a "1 of X" comment about almost any car.

Owning a '64 convertible that came with a tilt column from the factory, I think using your math I can make a fairly safe argument about the rarity of my car. Not that I care if my car is a "1 of 1", because I'm happy just having the car I have and being able to enjoy it.

My list of key factors as delivered:

1. Base 4 bbl engine
2. Optional 4spd
3. 3.23 gears
4. Safe-T-Track
5. Cameo Ivory
6. White convertible top
7. Black interior
8. Power steering
9. Manual brakes
10. Console
11. Factory tach
12. Poverty caps

Standard base engine, manual brakes, poverty caps with console and tilt column has to be relatively unusual. I don't know how popular Cameo Ivory was as a paint color, but as you noted, once you add in the top color and the interior color the combination of the those three items makes even a popular color somewhat "rare"...

Your reference to Cadillac made me smile to. My '49 Cadillac Series 75 Limo is 1 of 626 originally built in 1949. That's before you start breaking it down by any options.... It is black (probably common), black leather upholstery for the chauffeurs compartment, gray cloth passenger compartment, power windows, automatic, manual steering.

Even my wife's Camaro - Placer gold, black vinyl top, light tan interior, 350 2bbl, 3 spd manual, console with air conditioning. There were tons of Camaros built, but that combination was probably not very common. Doesn't make it valuable and we didn't care for the Placer Gold, the vinyl top, light tan interior, the 2bbl or the 3 spd tranny and all of those have been changed...

Great Combo! IMHO ;-)
Here's my friend's '65 in that exact configuration.
He bought it new and it has never been restored.
When I first met him in 1997-8 with my restored '66 his paint made mine look bad :)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ce5df234_b.jpg

You May be correct. My memory is not as good as it once was. :cool:

i think the biggest things that make a car unique is drivetrain,,exterior color and hard top or convertible.Most all of the other stuff is really nit picking and gets ridiculous.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...9&d=1610552363
...

Gorgeous cars. I really like the early cars in the teal/aqua variants. More generally, it seems like certain colors really go with certain years/models. Like a Verdoro green 68, or an iris mist early GTO. I really prefer those colors to something like a red, white, or black that was available every year.

Each year a book that covers the auto & truck industry production, prices, which factories made how many cars, etc. was published called Ward's Automotive Yearbook.

The book provides certain options by percentages. It generally covers the "Tempest" model to include the GTO, but sometimes you will see GTO specific.
- -
I don't have one for 1965, but here is a partial example for 1967 Tempest Models just to get an idea: Auto trans - 76.9%(98.8% full sized), 4-speed - 13.6% (0.5% full sized), V8- 78.5%, 6 Cyl - 21.5%, AC - 27.5%, front disc brakes - 2.4%(1.7% full sized), bucket seats - 56.1%(9.2% full sized), tilt - 1.9%, duel exhaust - 29%(11.8% full sized), limited slip - 16% (9.6% full sized), speed warning speedo - 1.5%(5.2% full sized).

I have another book on Pontiacs which says 18.8% of 1965 Tempest models (includes GTO) had a 4-speed.

I knew that a tilt wheel on my '64 GTO was rare. I didn't realize how rare.

Champ, I also have factory Tilt Wheel and consider it the most unique option on my own '64. Comparing yours and mine, I was struck by how similar yours is. And yet, by the same token, they are unique from each other.

1. Base 4 bbl engine - Same with mine.
2. Optional 4spd - Same with mine.
3. 3.23 gears - Same with mine.
4. Safe-T-Track - Mine built with base content Open Diff.
5. Cameo Ivory - Mine is Pinehurst Green.
6. White convertible top - Same with mine.
7. Black interior - Same with mine.
8. Power steering - Same with mine.
9. Manual brakes - Same with mine.
10. Console - Same with mine.
11. Factory tach - Mine didn't get this or the Clock option.
12. Poverty caps - Mine got the optional Custom (spinner) Wheel Covers.

Not sure what other equipment your GTO included but in addition, mine included:

13. Whitewalls
14. Deluxe Pushbutton AM Radio with fender mount Manual Antenna
15. Tinted Glass, All Windows

Mine was built and first retailed in California but because it was a late Nov build, it did NOT include the Closed Circuit PCV System, mandatory in Calif after Dec '63. It was also built without Seat Belts which became standard (albeit deletable from that point by order option for an $11 credit, but very rarely deleted) content after Dec '63.

Take note, mine also did not have an optional Outside Rearview Mirror, neither the manual or the remote version.

As examples of differences created by running changes, mine has the early taillight lenses with the reflectors at the ends vs. the later lenses with the center reflectors and mine has the early twin V belt setup with PS vs. the later setup that used separate belts to drive the Alt and PS pump.

This post probably qualifies as a hijack but meant to illustrate how difficult it is to find any 2 builds that don't differ in fairly significant ways.

I agree with scott70 for the most part. But with respect to '64 GTO builds, I would contend that certain builds were much more unique from all others having nothing to do with drivetrain, body style, or exterior color.

Some of the really unique builds, IMO, include a '64 GTO that was built by Special Order request with the standard Tempest Hood (no hood scoops), a couple that were built by Special Order request with Bench Front Seat in lieu of the standard Lemans Bucket Seat interior trim, and one that was built with Parchment interior trim but with Special Order request to include Red appointments.

These Special Order requests made for about as "custom" a factory build as you could hope to have in '64.

Just a general comment, not directed at any of the posters in this topic, but it made me pause and think.
Today my painter made the following comment, and it rings true so often.
"You don't find a horse turd in the road very often, so that is rare. Just because it's rare doesn't mean everyone wants it."

Hmmmm. I guess that would be like saying a gal with a pair of 52GGG's up top isn't common, so they are rare. Just because they are rare doesn't mean every guy wants them.

i always thought that girl from total recall with three of them was pretty exciting. but then again, i have three hands.

Pictures would help.:oogle:

Mine also came with those 3 items.

Mine was built in KC

Mine has the outside (manual) rearview mirror.

I would think your Pinehurst Green is rarer than Cameo Ivory.

Our cars are remarkably similar, yet both are unique.

As I posted earlier, I really don't care if my car is "1 of 1" or "1 of 1,000". It's mine and I'm glad it is...

Ford has the Marti report. Kevin Marti runs it. They can get pretty detailed, such as how many were built with any combination of options, color, drivetrain, etc. I've seen some that did list a car as 1 of 1 built that way.
But for the most part, that detailed information and about 2 bucks will buy you a cup of coffee in most any restaurant.

I would agree with that. My first and only other '64 GTO convertible was purchased in 1973 from the original owner, a dentist in Philadelphia. Unfortunately I don't know the VIN so never got PHS on it. But it was unmodified from all indications so I believe was factory built just as it appeared when I bought it.

It was Cameo Ivory with White Top but Dark Blue interior.

Base 4 bbl and base 3 spd on the floor. Safe-T-Track, undoubtedly 3.23 gears. Manual Outside Mirror, Deluxe Pushbutton AM Radio with Manual Antenna, 2 spd Wipers w/ Washers, Back-up Lights. PS, early build with the twin V-belt setup. Deluxe Wheel Covers. It had front seat belts in it when I bought it but I have no way of knowing if they were factory or aftermarket. They had metal buckles like the optional Custom Seat Belts but I'm guessing not factory. No idea if it had Red Lines or Whitewalls originally. I can't say if it had tinted windshield, all glass, or neither. Chances are it came out of Baltimore but without the VIN, I'm just guessing. If it had any other non-obvious options like HD Shocks, I would have needed to see the PHS to know. But given the relative scarcity of options, I'd guess not.

With the twin V-belts and the likelihood that it lacked factory seat belts, I believe it would have been built prior to January. Again, just guessing. But if I had access to PHS records, I bet I could find the VIN record for it. And I'm confident enough that it, too, was a 1 of 1 build so that if I found a record matching what I do remember of the build and where sold (Philly), I would be certain that the record would be of my GTO and not some other that was identical.

Except that I would love to have the PHS record for my former GTO and knowing it would be identifiable because it is "1 of 1", I totally agree with you.

Truthfully, I wish everybody loved the '64 GTO as much as I do and wish everybody owned one. Sharing a passion for it with others of like mind makes it more fun for me.