Bring on the boost!!!!! Time for a change
 

I have had nitrous on my Pontiac since I was 18 years old. As of tomorrow morning my tiger headed nitrous huffing engine will have a new home. And I will start my twin turbo build.

Somewhere along the way, I lost what I loved most about my car. The ability to drive it anywhere. While I drove my car a bit this year, it was not near enough and I was worried about valve springs and fuel the whole time. Plus with a passenger, the bottles have no place to sit. Its just not as fun anymore. I want to go faster, but I want to drive it as well. And with all this engine bay room, my car is just SCREAMING turbo.

So this is my thread that I will document my build from start to finish.

MISSION OBJECTIVE:

Drive my Pontiac WITH A PASSENGER to my local race track, run a 7 second pass and drive it home.

Any input, ideas, suggestions, parts, sponsors, and trash talking is all 100% welcome in this thread. As of right now this is all I know.....

It will be pontiac, it will be turbo, it will be injected. Other than that, I am all ears.

BrandX Your best bet is to talk to Tom Vaught. He is a guru, when it comes to boost. Thanks Rusty

Great idea. Can't go wrong with turbos and street manners. Good luck on your build and I'll be watching your progress. I'm looking foward to this. Mark L

Awesome!

What I can tell you is that traction and boost management are definitely important.

Making enough power with a pair of 88's will definitely not be a problem to get the job done.

The turbo route once complete is really the better choice as far as I am concerned.

Looking forward to the build info.

Just for grins, BrandX, post up your weight and the assumed cid & heads of the new engine.

Your car's photo looks like a nicely built "door car" vs a full chassis car. Say it can get down to a 3000# weight (with driver):

Wallace's calculators says "Your HP is 1,162.44 computed from your vehicle weight of 3000 pounds and ET of 7.99 seconds."

To run a legit 7.49, "Your HP is 1,411.12 computed from your vehicle weight of 3000 pounds and ET of 7.49 seconds."

So IF we assumed 1500 hp as a target, you get: "Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3000 pounds and HP of 1500 is 7.34 seconds and MPH of 182.56 MPH." A solid 7 second performance.

So say we assume a 1500 Horsepower target.

A typical engine will make between 9.5 hp and 10.5 hp for EACH "pound of air mass" flowing thru the engine in ONE MINUTE. Not cfm, AIR MASS.

so:

1500 hp divided by 9.5 = 157.9 lbs per minute of air required.
1500 hp divided by 10 = 150 lbs per minute of air required.
1500 hp divided by 10.5 = 142.9 lbs per minute of air required.

Worse case (with a cushion) would say we design for 160 pounds of air mass per minute turbo system. If you want a CFM number: The conversion formula from cfm to lbs./min. is to multiply or divide by 0.0691 depending upon the conversion direction. So we divide 160 pounds of air mass per minute by .0691 and get 2315.5 cfm.

We then go to the Turbonetics site:

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/content/compressor-maps

And we look at the "HP76 Turbocharger Map" as an example: (it is the first large map after you use the link).

It shows that under best conditions we could move 80 lbs of air per minute from one HP76 turbocharger at a little over 20 psi of boost (2.4 pressure ratio on the left side of the map and "80" at the bottom of the map. The compressor efficiency would be about 74%. If you wanted a bit more efficiency you could step up the Pressure Ratio to 2.8
and be in the 76% efficiency island. In reality the maps are typically not perfect as far as efficiency numbers go vs mass flow numbers which are more accurate. mass flow makes power, lower efficiency numbers raises the air temp going into the engine slightly. So you would need TWO HP76 turbos to make about 160 lbs of air mass per minute. You would have a lot of cushion if you only needed 143 lbs of air mass per minute.

A pair of Y2K Turbos (T-88s) would make well over 2000 hp at a 2.4 pressure ratio:
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/sites/...T-88%20Map.jpg

Looking at the Turbonetics catalog:

http://turboneticsinc.com/forum/turb...11_CAT_LOW.pdf

If you look at page 17 of the catalog under the TN series Turbos you will see that the HP76 Turbo is rated at 1000 hp per turbo. lots of room to make power.

TN1000-BB 1000 (Horsepower) HP76 Super-T 4.5"/3.0" F1-68 T4 .96A/R 4-bolt/V-band n/a 11530-BB

That would be my first estimate on how to make your goal.

A Single Turbo Installation using a HP-106 TNX turbo (same basic size as John Welters deal) as we know will make excellent HP and run 6.80s (which John W has done several times).

HP-106 30649 5.50" 20737 (11175 TNX0106 1.32 A/R 1750 HP+)

Tom Vaught

ps the Turbo is just a small part of the whole deal though.

Travis Quillen would also be an excellent resource for this project.

calculations
 

Hey Tom, These same figures can be used when figuring on blower size too Correct?? for CFM requirment?

Excellent reply Tom. Part of the planning should also include type fuel intended. Intercooling and water injection are part of the picture. If pump gas, the practical/probable pressure ratio has to be taken into consideration when choosing the turbo. If for example you set an arbitrary boost psi of say 15 , you need to choose a turbo that can meet the mass flow requirements of the HP desired at that psi level while staying out of surge zone or getting into choke.

I'll also add that you wont need maximum bore size or stroke to acheive/exceed your goal. (Or turn very high rpm for that matter).

I like your goal though. I'm not looking for your ET level with my build but I too like driving my car. Would love to drive all the way to Norwalk run some respectable numbers and drive home. Turbo gives the motor that flexability. The real challenge for me will be keeping the chassis combo flexible enough for a 1000 mile round trip and still be able to run quick numbers.

Good luck with your project I'll be following it closely.

It looks like the turbo conversion is spreading. I'd be watching your build as you always build a Bad Ass setup. Good luck.

Forgot to warn you turbos can be like crack... once exposed you are hooked forever. My first introduction was in 68 when I took a ride in a friends 65 Corvair Corsa turbo. (An animal compared to my $35.00 road rat standard Corvair I was drivin a year later) Left an impression for sure.

Woo Hoo, Go for it BrandX

Many of us have seen this video here, Larry Larson's 6 second Nova & Drag Week winner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwF-kr91uxU

X,

Mike Moran now has the ability to tune at any dyno in the word from the comfort of his hometown chair. I would love to see what he can do to a Pontiac. You sir, would be a perfect candidate!

On a side note, I've been following the progression of your car and dig it all! I am however, partial to satin black 70's ;)

Good luck on the build and look forward to hearing how it all comes together.

Agree the Surge Zone, see compressor map for HP76 , can be pretty far to the right on some larger turbos. Fortunately if you look at the HP76 (see link above) you will see that at 10 psi of boost (bottom red horizontal line on the map) you are well to the right of the surge line at as little as 25 lbs per minute of airflow (250 horsepower). Any Pontiac will make well over 250 hp at 10 psi of boost due to their cubic inch size. So the only surge that you might get is if you sized the compressor by-pass valves too small and can't dump the air fast enough when the throttle blade is slammed shut on a quick back-out of the throttle. The wastegate will not help you much there in the first 100 milliseconds of the throttle blade being closed. A GOOD compressor by-pass valve will open in about 32 milliseconds.

It turns out that this guy has one of the best CBVs out there:

http://www.spike.com/video-clips/cw7...mpressor-surge

Great video explaining the difference between a bad and a good CBV valve in his video.

Tom Vaught

boost
 

its not just Turbos that are addictive. It's the Boost!!!!!!! with the power that can be made with turbos and blowers today its just awsome.. Following what Tom posted 3000lb car goal 7.50 its exactly what my goal is. So look foward to spring. Gonna have some fun.

Yes, the Mass Air side of the deal is the same. The problem is most supercharger guys do not have a Supercharger Flow Stand. Therefore no accurate maps to go by. The only supercharger company I am aware of in the Hot Rod industry who has a flow stand that can do accurate mapping is Vortech/Paxton Engineering located near the Channel Islands, in California.

The efficiencies on a roots type supercharger are also pretty low therefore a lot more heat made and most do not run an inter-cooler after the supercharger.

That being said, the people making superchargers for the Big 3, typically use the factory production boost parts. The 2004 Cobra Mustang is a production example where Supercharger companies offer larger superchargers that bolt on to the factory intake manifold. Vortech/Paxton again makes all their own stuff for the OEMs.

So to say that the supercharger can be figured the same way? Yes if it is a Vortech/ Paxton Supercharger. If you have a Procharger you take their advertized flow numbers and hope it works. Typically most over-build when using the Procharger stuff because a F2 that makes 1400 hp on one engine will make it on a different brand engine. Only deal there is you have to subtract out the power it takes to spin the blower. With the turbo stuff you are using energy that normally just goes out the headers.

Tom Vaught

Obviously I wanna go faster than 7.90, but small achievable goals with an overbuilt combo are easier for me to shoot for hahaha. The nitrous combo weighed 3400 lbs. I have no pieces of the puzzle yet, and I have a call in to Travis q and he will be calling me next week with an initial gameplan. Starting from scratch I am hoping we can build it right the first time, and build it around my budget instead of around my parts (usually what I end up doing)....

I can't wait to hear back from Travis q do I can get a head start on the engine. I will be building everything myself from start to finish. I have never welded in my life, and I am going to buy a welder and teach myself to tig weld. I want to be proud of myself and my car and our goals accomplished together.

Looking forward to watching your progress. Good luck!





Bryan

Subscribed....This should make the winter go fast!

Welcome to the club BrandX!
Tom and Travis are great guys to consult with. For what you’re going to save fabricating your own headers, you’ll be able to get a really nice TIG welder.

A Company that does fabrication stuff for me taught one of my summer high school interns at Ford how to TIG weld in one afternoon. Kid did a nice job on flat stock.

Course the machine was set perfect for the welding process.

I can get you "numbers" for a basic Header welding type process and the purge gas that they recommend for the stainless type IF you tell me the machine you will be buying. Don't even think about trying to make proper headers without the purge welding process (separate gas tank fills the header tube to remove internal slag formation).

Tom Vaught

welding classes
 

that reminds me of taking my welding classes back in the day at College of Lake County Gary one of the instructors and a fellow racer had us working on his Nova for the class project. Showed us about filling the tubes just like your talking about Tom for doing stainless headers. If I remember correctly think we used a Tri mix back then.

I would make sure you have a big belt sander, makes squaring up all the pipes easy. If your stainless moves around anything like mine did when I had it finished welded you can fix the flanges. We used tinfoil over the ends of the tubes with a couple of rod sized holes pocked in the foil to purge the pipes when welding.
With as fast as you have gone on nitrous going 7's with a turbo should be easy!
Good luck with the project and my Santa bring you a nice set of jack stands, turbo cars like jackstands, LOL

ive got some jackstands lol, and after lots of hard work this year, i was able to pick up a cheap lift on craigslist. Its like having a car on a shelf hahahaha

i personally dont plan on finish welding the headers, i think that may be one area of the car i have some help with. I would like to "tack" them up and have them finish welded by a professional.

The few things i am concerned with at this time....

do i go extra bolt holes in the block and heads or is this nessecary? Ofcourse it will be o ringed block with reciever grooves i imagine.

bore and stroke

cylinder heads selection

one set of big expensive injectors or two cheaper small sets

In red...

Smart move to tack and send out. That will save a bunch of time and probably some frustration going thriugh the learning curve.
Extra bolts would be a nice addition, but not sure if it is needed. It all depends on the amount of boost you would be running.

On the bore and stroke I would tell you from my experience that my 535 seems to work really well.

You know there is alot of BS talk on the heads to use, and it will be debated forever. I will tell you that my heads I am absolutely satisfied with and would absolutely reccomend them (and have) again to any one, especially when boost is involved.
I would also suggest the roller cam bearing option in the block.

On the injectors--Talk to Travis. lol

Brother did a lot of his welding with a simple spool gun - turned out great in my opinion and allowed for purchased SS headers, BBC of course. He has 2 88's hung over the rear axle with Fast XFI on E85.

I'd go with either 2 88's or a single 106mm... thought about it many times, but I like the eye candy sticking through the hood - even if it is slower! :) Gdlk!

Due to traction you have only been at 5 psi and at 4200 lbs your mph has you around 1000 hp. No question in my mind once you get traction resolved you will be able to use all your turbo's capacity. (106 iirc) I see a bigger turbo or twins in your future Doc.

I kind of like a 4.25 bore myself for gasket and oring considerations. 4.25x4.25 for 482 ci not a bad combo to consider either.(IIRC Butler promod is that ci)Maybe a 4" stroke 454 inch combo if you want some rpm to play with. Calvin Hills Quest port CV's have good volume for a turbo and flow 430+(I witnessed higher on Mondellos sf1020 bench). Exhaust mod (std Pontiac style port not convertible) gives great exhaust numbers for a turbo application. Convertible exhaust option like Doc has eases exhaust fab. A set of highports done by Calvin might be my second choice.

IMO the Moran injectors though quite pricey are the best injector out there. Bosch if you are going to double up would be my second choice.(probably still less cost than the Moran's)
Dont rule out a good blow-thru carb from CSU.

With the exhaust flanges:

1) We make them thick (typically .500" material)

2) We make one of the center exhaust bolt holes the "master hole" and have a
close tolerance between it and the stainless steel stud going thru it.

3) We make the other exhaust flange holes oval shaped (to allow for expansion
of the flange from heat. All of the holes get a stainless steel stud going thru them.

4) We surface machine the flanges (after welding) to be flat and true. We then very
carefully machine a "China Wall" around each port opening. This "China Wall" will be
.050" taller than the basic surface of the header flange. The "China Wall" will have a
.200" wall around each port opening. To do this you need to remove material everywhere
on the flange except in the "China Wall" locations.

5) You then have Vermiculite gaskets made that are .060" thick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiculite

The Vermiculite material is a natural mineral that expands with the application of heat.
The expansion process is called exfoliation and it is routinely accomplished in purpose-designed
commercial furnaces. Between the "China Wall" and the Vermiculite material we have run
extremely high pressure ratios and have never failed an exhaust flange gasket.

Food for thought.

Tom Vaught

after lots of looking at pics of my nitrous combo in my car, the sv1 head looks like a great idea mainly because of the exhaust placement, would mean much easier header fabrication...

What about seat material and valve material?

CV-1s with "Convertible Exhaust" location was one of the first things to hit my eye when the heads first came out.

Tom Vaught

If you want to race it in a heads up class what size turbo would you have to use? Travis picked 2- 78mm turbos for my build. One of the classes I want to run in will require them to be reduced to 67mm. Just something to keep in mind.

Which was the main reason I went with FI. If I have to make changes from one track to another I wanted to do it with my laptop. Im not a carb expert so I felt a little more comfortable being able to rely on making changes with the laptop.

I used twin 160lb injectors, but Im running meth not gas. FAST has some info on how to calculate how big a injector you will need using pump gas. I would look at the 225lb atomizer injectors if your planning on running pump gas. I've read good things about the ability to tune them.

My twin 160's were tough getting enough fuel out of them at a idle. Im still getting some raw fuel but its the best I can do with a FAST classic. If you look at the BS3 controller I think you can control when the second set of injectors comes in. You have to first decide what fuel and max HP you want to make.

I was told to use Ti intake valves and Super Alloy exhaust valves.

Think about turbo placement as well. I had to raise my motor 1" to get the headers to clear with a std edlebrock head. I used 1.750" header tubes. When I buy a new head I'll plan on using one that has the convertible head option. That would have made my life much better during the header fab.
If you place them lower than the oil pan plan on a oil reclaim pump as well.

See it doesnt take long for the money to start adding up. I spent $1400 on the aluminum tubing for the cold side, carbon steel headers and 3.5" stainless exhaust tubing. I built all of it my self except the exhaust flanges.

I would also recommend using a forward facing TB. My dominator hat is roughly 6" above the fender line. This might require a sheet metal intake but I think it would be worth it in the long run.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=626838

I contacted Travis to spec a twin turbo system for my friends 540 BBC powered car(a bit of payback,a Pontiac guy spec'ing parts for a Chebby,he,he.), he came back with twin Precision 76's,gates,BOV's and a custom Comp solid roller. Everything seems to be working well together,along with a CSU Domi that is about spot on out of the box. So far he has run a couple of high 8's at 160mph,with a soft 9psi tune(non intercooled but with an AIS water inj.kit) in his 2950lb tube car, we are still trying to get the hang of the 7531 box and AMS 500 boost controller, both a neccesity in this street tyred 90" wheelbase pocket rocket. Travis spec'd the turbos for around the 1500hp mark.

No class racing for me, thanks. Hp....let's shoot for 2500ish, why not!!

Do the cv1 heads have the extra bolt option?

I recall having a discussion with Jim a year or so ago where he stated that he had the provisions designed into the head for the additional head bolt, or it could be converted. Can't remember specifics, but I was inquiring for the same reasons a year or so ago and found out it could be done.

good luck with your new project.

Thanks Jeff it's gonna be a serious learning curve. Talking with Travis and Rodney frequently, I think they have me started in the right direction.

Ok, here is the first big breakthrough in my turbo future.

Rodney butler is working on the block and heads. We haven't decided yet in wide ports or pro ports, waiting on his phone call to finalize that situation. He will be performing the butler/Quillen secret head sealing duties before sending me the block and heads. It will e a dry deck. As of right now, it's looking like 4.25 bore and 4.25 stroke.

Travis is sending me the 88mm billet wheel turbos, and precision 66mm wastegates, and pt3000 intercooler. I will begin mock up and build headers and piping with stock block and a mock up set of heads while waiting on heads and block to get here.

As of now, that's the big start to this project. Pics and more info as I move forward on this project.

Thanks to Travis and Rodney this project looks easier every day. And actually very budget friendly.

You are definitely getting advice from the right guys!

That's no joke, I bet Travis Quillen saved me 5 grand today in advice and parts. Seriously!

The e.t. Possibilities of this combo are staggering, not to mention extremely streetable.

After selling all my stuff, I have realized that nitrous (the way I do it) wasn't really any cheaper than turbo. Just 500 dollars at a time instead of one big hit. I should have done this a long time ago. The engine is ALOT cheaper to build, and once you factor in 2 foggers at 1700 a piece, 8 bottles, bottle bath, 250 jets at 8 dollars a piece, a drum of spark plugs, c23 fuel at 900 a drum, a mother bottle and refill station, all the data logger **** and high dollar carb, and nitrous controllers, it's really close to the same money in the long run and seems to a bit more reliable and definately more streetable. And the one big thing, WAY MORE POWER hahahaha

good luck, you've got some of the best helping you. if you get a chance to take a welding course it will help quite a bit. it's nice to know a little of what you're doing before buying a piece of equipment. you'll want to do some thinking on what kind of power you need in the shop for the size welder you buy. my 175 amp tig works fine on 50 amps @ 220v at home, the 300 amp capable miller at work wants 100 amps when maxed out. can't wait to see it come together.

Sounds like a plan is coming together. Best of luck.

I gotta admit that I love the way a twin turbo car sounds at launch. Ever hear the sound of a fully automatic assualt shotgun? That's what I hear. :D

This build ought to be pretty bad ass. Especially if you are gunning for 2500 HP.
A M1-A2 tank only has 1500 HP to put things into perspective :eek:

Keep your dual purpose focus in mind at all times and choose the pieces accordingly. You can meet/exceed both of your goals. And I'm relatively certain at a cost you can live with after its built. I've played with N2O a little bit but that running out thing just bugs me. When I want power I want it right then not crap about do I have enough on board.

My own build the biggest concern for dual purpose, is I'd prefer not to run a spool. Thinking of investigating beyond the drag racers world and looking at some of the jumbo 4x4 stuff to see if there is something there as a spool alternative. Probably is, and big and heavy too. But, hey its a turbo, turn up the boost.

I love a spool on the street. Hell my wife's Chevelle has a spool!!! I am installing a cdplayer though hahaha

I dont like gettin caught in rain with one. Besides I would really drive from TN to Norwalk and race it.(dont know how the tires would hold up running a spool that far) Goal sub 9s and 12-15 mpg+ keep the AC and power stuff. My 84 GP is a nice driver I want to retain as much of that as I can.

Building a 428 from a 59 389 block presently doing radical surgery on a set of 6x's. Semi-wide ported and cutting exhaust and head radically to create w8 mopar style exhaust exit.(upwards) No longer have pushrod pinch in intake port. Its a straight shot now.(.150 offset pushrod hole lifter and rocker) Striving for head with good flow for planned ci/rpm with high ex percentages. They will get some time at Mondellos soon for some preliminary testing. So far just my time invested in the heads.

AC compressor will also be keeping a/w intercooler tank cool . Probably make my own intake with a/w cooler within etc.. Trying to keep most fab work etc done by me but I'm going to have help here and there. (I tend to be a diehard do it myself guy) Likely MSIII efi. But could build dual quad blow through(thermoquads maybe is tempting challenge seeing I have a matched pair) to be different.

Tom V and Travis have provided valuable insight over the years and answered questions for me. (many I didnt even ask but gave me clues or ideas through their responses to others) Thanks btw!

Just going to take me longer than I'd like to get this done. Like many my economy aint what it used to be.

A few pics of the intake side.(not done obviously)I havent touched the exhaust yet. That will need some precise machinery I dont have.

Any thoughts on the forged cranks instead of the billet for 2500hp?