EFI intake system
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Does anyone make or modify an EFI system like the ones FiTech makes as pictured to fit a 400-455 Pontiac engine?
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I have seen a couple of modified intakes, done by Luhn Performance that used a Pontiac Dual Quad lower intake (with Injector Bosses added) and a LS upper and lower plenum attached to the Pontiac Intake.
I did one using a Nash/Warrior lower TR Intake and the parts in this post to make a EFI Intake. You can trim and modify the intake length by cutting and tig welding but I would just buy the piece on the far right, drill some holes to mount your piece to the intake you want to run and then add the top piece (on the left) and a throttle body. Tom V. |
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I will be running a North Wind Intake set up for MPFI and top it off with a low profile throttle body elbow so I can mount a large bore LS throttle body. Holley makes a real low profile elbow that only adds approximately 3" of height to the top of the intake manifold. This should allow most single plane intakes to clear most hoods. SPEED SAFE, NICK |
I would think that it would sell and offer a more modern look to add fuel injection to older engines. I wonder how they would flow and work with stock "good" heads.
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I mis spoke in my above post... its Edelbrock who makes the low profile throttle body elbow not Holley.
The beauty is that the set up with the NW intake and Elbow is literally begging to be blown! SPEED SAFE, NICK |
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SPEED SAFE, NICK |
You are correct about the air flow and carb signal from the engine events having an effect on the carb boosters and how well they operate under all conditions.
Dual carbs tend to allow a straighter shot at the boosters vs a single carb application. With EFI, the air just gets into the plenum thru the throttle body. The issue is where does the majority of the air go? Lousy goose neck adapters mean lousy fuel distribution. If most of the air packs up in the back of the intake then the rear cylinder need more fuel to have a "Non-lean" air/fuel ratio. If the air passing thru the intake blows by the front runners then less air there and the front cylinders need to have a leaner fuel calibration. Modern EFI systems do a good job on this with individual injectors per runner systems and tuning capabilities.. The EFI/carb clones basically just help you not do jet changes. No real tuning per cylinder as most are batch fire on the injectors. So just because you have a simple throttle body on the front of a goose-neck adapter going to the intake manifold does not mean even distribution of the air and same fuel requirement per cylinder. Some low profile goose-necks are really lousy air distribution parts. Tom V. |
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I also completely get your point about this same phenomenon having a very probable obstacle with the intake/elbow set up I am planning on running. The Edlebrock elbows I have been looking at may not be perfect however I think I can work with them... They do have a large divider cast into the center of them which I would think would help minimize the charge to the back half of the intake manifold. So there would be some amount of "redirection" forcing the air charge to the center of the manifold. I was planning on making a thin plate with a "curtain" welded to the plate that literally just fit into the inner dimensions of the 8150 cut out that dropped down approximately an inch into the plenum. The idea was to extend the track of the elbow an inch into the manifold in an attempt to complete the "re-direct" and focus the air more naturally to the center of the intake rather than aft heavy... Im not sure if that makes any sense or not... My concern is negatively effecting intake flow if the curtain idea extended to far into the manifold. However if I can hang that curtain just far enough to redirect the majority of rearward energy to aim to the intake floor I think it could end up with more control over the AFR between cylinders without removing volume or placing an obsticle directly in the air stream which would slow the air down... Not trying to do that. A spacer may aid in adding volume to the total set up... if the hood allows it. What are your thoughts... SPEED SAFE, NICK |
I was interested in the low profile LS style intake as I pictured for a non turbocharged application. I do appreciate all the feedback as well.
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Larry Wenzler was developing a top like the Holley top for his intake.
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I will be running the Edelbrock low profile elbow and an LS DBW TB on a Victor EFI intake. Before I went down this road I spoke to a number of people, due to concerns of air distribution. The Edelbrock guys I spoke to after numerous calls basically told me that it's not as much of a factor as some may believe, and they did some ridiculous hours of testing with the low elbow specifically. He commented that you want to use an open plenum intake, and the taller they are the better. The divider was placed and sized, to maximize the distribution. The amount of air flow discrepancies are so low it was not a great concern.
Yes, you can go custom, and have something made, but you all know what that means. $$$$$. And the gains will be arguable I bet. I plan on monitoring EGTs and plug readings, as well as overall AFRs. But for anything other than an all-out strip car, I suspect it will be fine. Give me a few weeks and I will have actual data. But have seen several others who have used a similar setup and are satisfied. . |
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Thanks for the pics... at least now I can see what my combo will look like. The only reason I did not go with the victor and went with the NW was because I was concerned with hood clearance... Are you able to get hood closed without contact with the way it is now? Also, It appears that you are using an electronic throttle body... I was planning on sticking with the cable... however I am interested as to what PCM/ software you plan to control everything with. Thanks for sharing!!!! SPEED SAFE, NICK |
Yes, drive by wire TB. It's a CTS-V one, with the solenoid off to the side for added clearance. I tried a couple vette ones and they didn't clear by about a 1/2". It's close. I have about an inch, maybe inch and a quarter clearance with the hood closed.
Hoods slope down towards the front, so it gets lower/tighter the further you go forward. But, you could go off to the side, or even the rear if you absolutely had to. If you go to the side, and your intake is too low, or your rails are too high, the elbow won't clear the rails. But you could always use base spacers and creep up on it. I've seen a couple 2nd gen 'birds go to the side, no problem. (As long as you don't have short body bushings.). If I would have not had enough room, I would have gone to a NW. But the 68-72 A-bodies have considerable room, and shouldn't be too difficult to work it out. Using a Holley Dominator EFI ECU, Holley 48# injectors, and Edelbrock fuel rails. You can check out my build thread, but honestly, I've been bad about keeping up with it. I want to get the project done, almost there, and any spare time I have I am in the garage! . |
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Make sure you take engine twisting into consideration under WOT load... If it twists enough it could end up kissing the underside of the hood. I plan to run front/mid plates on mine. How much clearance do you have over your water neck? I was planning to run a cooling block there which adds like 2" of height... Again, thanks for sharing your information!!! SPEED SAFE, NICK |
Sorry, just saw this, some reason didn't get notified back when.
I did DBW because I knew it would be lower than a cable one. The cable ones have a 'cam' for the cable, and it sticks up over the body. I have about 3/4", and even when the engine torques, it doesn't contact. And throttle response is not an issue. The water neck is close, about 1.5". Sadly, you have to mock it all up and just see. I had to shuffle throttle bodies until I found the best one. A Northwind would do it easily, but you would have to have injector bungs installed. . |
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I’m currently working on a manifold like Tom V showed, but I also have this one.
It’s a copy of the PPR Tomahawk manifold. This one has PRO COMP on a runner, but I have another with no name on it. You can find them on eBay for under $150. I chose this one for clearance under shaker scoop on a 2nd gen. |
Also, Holley Terminator X Max has DBW and a tranny controller built into it, if you're wanting EFI and an OD auto trans (and DBW, or not)- it's a heck of a deal for what it is.
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I’m starting to get all my parts pieced together. This is what I’ll be using for my induction system. This gets me a super low profile, I will add as much spacer as I can fit under the hood to ease transition and add volume.
I’m not exactly sure what throttle body I will be running however it will be either a dual or mono blade throttle body. Undecided on size as well... but the good news is there are lots of options for this plenum. SPEED SAFE, NICK |
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If you have a engine retention strap on the drivers side you should be able to figure out the spacer height fairly easily. Extra volume in that spacer height really helps with getting the air more evenly to the runners on a engine when you are NA or are off Boost.. Tom V. |
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I will also be running a mid and front plate so I may be able to drop the engine a hair as well. The plates will prevent any movement so I can really take advantage of the clearance. I plan to cross that bridge when I get their, really not sure how much I can safely drop the engine before the oil pan vs road start getting into the equation. SPEED SAFE, NICK |
I would suggest putting two play putty balls on the "elbow"
you should really use golf balls. |
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Luckily, they make oval tubing to make a intake air tube. What body is this going in? I took the passenger inner fender well out, and slowly started lowering the hood, and actually watched how close it was getting. You can put it on jack stands, and actually stick your head up there with the wheel off, and even measure. The engine to hood clearance doesn't really change when it's on jack stands, depending on the condition of your body/core bushings. . |
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There are a variety of these too:
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Those are called 'Air Foils', or 'LT1 intake air foils'.
The throttle bodies available for those type openings are limited, I don't think you can get any that are more than like 62mm ones, if you are running a larger displacement engine, you may run out of cfm. What's the engine displacement and expected max RPM? EDIT: Once the elbow starts getting too low, you may have to switch to a 'roots blower' type thermostat housing due to clearance issues. . . |
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http://sullivanperformance.com/throt...er-dual-blade/ - Dual blade http://sullivanperformance.com/throt...-accufab-oval/ - Mono Blade We modify their 4.6L Ford intake manifolds to fit Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep 4.7L engines with our intake adapter plates. We where looking into using their throttle body plenum however it was easier to modify an EDL low profile LS plenum and just weld a 4.7L throttle body plate to them... So the plenum you see in the pic has been sitting on my shelf for nearly 10 years. Its a nice piece. I'm not so sure on what it will take to make the oval mono blade work with the Holley EFI Dominator ECU. If its as easy as plug and play, I will most likely get a large mouth Mono blade throttle body and run that plenum. I like the idea because its SUPER low profile... If I go with a round LS throttle body, it will take up over an additional 2.5 inches. The Sullivan plenum is only 3.5" tall from the intake manifold. This gives room to add spacers which would add volume and help direct air DOWN more evenly rather than concentrating pressure at the aft intake runners. If I do use it, I would just remove the divider entirely... It would be a straight forward cut. Perhaps some touch up welding to close some of the hole... that area is used for the Idle air control circuit which mounts below the plenum out of sight. Here are some examples of the throttles body I could run with that plenum. https://accufabracing.com/mustang-co...-throttle-body - Cable https://superchargersonline.com/prod...shelby-gt-500/ - Fly by Wire SPEED SAFE, NICK |
Very cool. That's thinking outside of the box. Those Accufab TBs flow good, the elbow would be the limiting factor in many cases. I've used some of those before, some of the 4150 mount 4bbls ones are very low, can squeeze those into tight places.
As for what the HP or dominator ECUs will work with, you can start here, the 'selection guide' : https://documents.holley.com/efi_sel...chart62914.pdf Here's the DBW TBs & pedals that work with the Dominator: APPROVED GM THROTTLE BODIES: GM Part # - 12570800 GM Part # - 12570790 GM Part # - 12580760 GM Part # - 12580195 GM Part # - 12605109 GM Part # - 12629992 GM THROTTLE PEDAL ASSEMBLIES: GM Part # - 10379038 Lokar Part # - BDBW-GM02 APPROVED FORD THROTTLE BODIES: Ford Part # - 7R3Z 9E926-AA (GT500) Ford Part # - BR3E-9F911-AB (Coyote) Ford Part # - BR3Z-9F836-D (Coyote) FORD THROTTLE PEDAL ASSEMBLIES: Ford Part # - BR3Z-9F836-C (Coyote) Ford Part # - BR3Z-9F836-D (Coyote) APPROVED CHRYLSER THROTTLE BODY (DBW): Chrysler Part # - 04591847 CHRYSLER PEDAL ASSEMBLIES: Chrysler Part # - 0486 1708 (558-417 Specific) Chrysler Part # - 0486 1714 (558-418 Specific) As for non-DBW TBs, basically boils down to the TPS, IAC, MAP, CTS, type, and you can mix & match. There are drop-down boxes to make selections. There is also a custom selection where you can enter parameters for each type of sensor, but some combos may be limited due to algorithms' complexity. But if you stick to say all Ford stuff, or all GM stuff, you would be in good shape, especially if you don't mix 'generations' or OE combos. You can download the Holley EFI software and play with it, after you dig around, you can figure out what works and what doesn't. If you really wanted to, you can drill down to the ECU pinouts, and make your own harnesses (I did). That way you don't have a big bundle of wires that you only need 60% of. I wouldn't bother cutting the one you have up, would just get the single mouth unit and sell the one you have. The single mouth one also looks like a better flow path, and there is a diagram showing height, not sure on the dual, there is no diagram. You have seen the Edelbrock elbows right? It's lower, and is only .56" above the 4150 flange: https://www.edelbrock.com/ultra-low-...ack-38473.html The Sullivan single mouth is 3.5" above the 4150 mount flange in comparison. (again, not sure on the dual mouth, no specs) You do also realize that with a DBW TB, there is no IAC. That saves space and cost. MAT sensor mounting also has some particulars, keep that in mind too. . . |
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I would have to call Steve at Sullivan to see if he is just cutting the center divider out of existing cast or if he is having them made separately. I am fairly sure he just has one plenum made (with the divider) and just removes it for those who dont need it. This would keep production cost down and make it easier to keep stocked up. Thanks for the tips and information, it will most certainly come in useful. SPEED SAFE, NICK |
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