200R4 problems
 

I took my GTO for a ride yesterday and ended up towing it home. :mad: it has a mild 455 and a 200r4 that was supposed to handle 500 HP. it has about 500 miles on it even though it was done 4 years ago. i was cruising about 55-60 mph and hit the gas pretty hard, there was a loud bang and it felt like the tranny went into neutral. no leaks, no other noise it just doesn't move. any ideas?
thanks Bryan

intermediate drum shaft sheared off
 

It's most likely the intermediate shaft. I had exactly the same thing happen 20 years ago in my 200-4R behind a 428. Fortunately, the shaft broke cleanly straight across at the back of the splines so didn't damage anything else. I was in the fast lane, stepped on it to pass a slowpoke and bam! had neutral. Coasted 4 lanes over to the shoulder.

Since then, I no longer do that WOT kickdown maneuver. I've memorized roughly where redline is in each gear and if I have the need to do max acceleration, I manually downshift 1st before stepping on it.

https://www.cpttransmission.com/2004...diate_Drum.htm

I had mine built locally in Dripping Springs with CPT parts. I've been beating the **** out of it for about 3 years with slicks at the track, doing road rallys, running 160mph on the highway and all it has been is perfect.

A stock 200 4R can't live long behind a well built 455. Hell, the 4L60s GM put behind the 1st generation LS1s don't live long either.
400+ foot pounds of torque breaks a lot of stock parts.

200 r4
 

A stock 200 4R can't live long behind a well built 455. Hell, the 4L60s GM put behind the 1st generation LS1s don't live long either.
400+ foot pounds of torque breaks a lot of stock parts.

i didnt think it was stock , although i dont really know what was done to it. the guy who rebuilt it owns a local shop and does a lot of hod rods and race cars. he was pretty confidant it would hold up. after doing a search and seeing how much you have in parts it must be closer to stock than i thought. it cost me 1100.00 with a converter.

Hmmm, i look forward to doing that good ole Passing Gear Kick-down with WOT. TH400 delivers the goods. Dard certain the 4L80 is equal to the task.

Never opened a 200M, 200r4, 700r4 so i justa donta know. 4r70w looks capable!

If a "Mainshaft" snapped then the metal sizing just isnt in the basic design. huh

$1100 with a converter, it was pretty much stock.

To find a reliable 200 your going to be in the $2500 area without a converter.

Lonnie Diers, of Extreme Automatics, has a stage 1 (500 HP) for $2200 and a stage 2 (750 HP)for $2700. Diers is one of the top 200r4 builders in the country, so he would know what it takes to keep one together.

A 200r4 wouldn't be my first consideration, but that's an entirely different topic.

If you're going to stay with the 200r4 you should go to one of the best in the industry, there are probably 10 people in the US that can build a reliable 200. You've already paid your $1100 admission fee.

Why not actually talk to some of the 200 builder pros, ask what they think? Jake and CK Performance, Chris, will both not recommend a 200 anymore, there are better alternatives. Also, it's too difficult to find good 200 cores anymore.

I'm not going to get into the whole 200 debate, but my personal opinion is they don't belong behind a performance engine, and a 455 can make 500 ft lbs without even trying. Most people that have them behind 455s lasting aren't making as much power as they think they are.


.

200 r4
 

i guess i thought since im not a drag racer and i built my car to be a driver/cruiser it would be ok. just cant keep my foot out of it all the time! ill see what the guy who built it has to say. maybe back to the turbo 400. too bad i gave the original trans from the car to a friend to have rebuilt for his tempest conv.

A TH400 with 3.08s is not a bad combo. But it's still not like OD.

These days, even TH400s are not that cheap to do 'right', if you can squeeze more cash, and get OD, that would be optimum. If you want to be SURE you won't have any problems with an OD, the only choice is a 4L80e. A 4L80e in just about stock form is good to like 750+ ft lbs. Ask any of the builders that do both 200s AND 4L80e, they will tell you the same.

The problem with getting advice from a builder who purely does 200s is, they will always advise you to get a 200, even if it's not the best option.

Do a cost analysis, side by side, and see what it would truly cost to do whatever transmissions that are available, and then see what you come up with. See what the differences are, and cost, and see if it makes sense to pursue whatever path.

A good TH400 with a good converter these days are close to $2k, if not more. (depending on the converter). The cost of trans alone between a TH400 and a 4L80e is about the same.

Obviously, the added costs of doing a 4L80e is the controller, crossmember or crossmember mods, shifter mod, driveshaft, and speedo mods. The adapter is very inexpensive (@$65). That is the true difference between doing a TH400 and a 4L80e.

Think it thru logically, and do your own homework.

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I would stay with an O.D. just for the "less wear & tear" factor on the engine. I'm sure your 55+ cruising RPM's were in the mid to low 2000's vs. 3500+ RPM without O.D. Look into a 4L80. You could get away with a stock or mild build and not have to drive your car as if you were hauling a trunk full of eggs.

200r4
 

i was really looking forward to the OD. i had 3:23's put in the rear. i will look into the newer trans. i was just kind of caught up in the no adapter plate thing.

The tranny with the least expense for you would be the 700R4/4L60. Would could get away with pretty much everything you already have other than the adaptor plate and driveshaft shortening. The only thing about the 700R4/4L60 is that some people don't like the short 1-2 shift. I like it but some don't. That can be cured with a 1-2 gear swap but now you are talking more money and now you may want to weigh the cost with a 4L80e.

There are probably thousands of performance cars reliably running the $52 adapter plates to adapt 4 of the 6 trans bolts of a chevy bell pattern to a BOP engine. It's not the factor to base your decision on, because it's not going to affect the reliability of the install one bit.

The 2 bottom bolts of the chevy pattern are in the same position as the BOP bolts are, and screw directly into the block on either application. Leaving the upper 4 bolts to be adapted by use of the plate. There is absolutely no reason to sidestep the simple conversion.

Since the guy that built your transmission is probably a chevy fan, he probably isn't used to the torque that a 455 Pontiac produces. The transmission he built for you would've probably held up for years behind most street SBCs, even though most SBC owners all have 600HP at the flywheel, just ask them......LOL :D

I was born in, and lived in Erie for 47 years, I owned my own garage, and worked for independent garages as well as many of the GM dealerships. The people in Erie can make a penny into a dime just by squeezing it. If you're going to have reliable OD behind a 455, you're going to have to decide which way you're going to go, and pay the price.

I really don't want to get into the back and forth between which transmission is a better choice, but the 4L80E came in chevy and GMC trucks up to 15,000 lbs GVW, with stock internals, behind turbo diesels, and BB engines up to 8.1 liters. Essentially a T400, with factory designed OD, electronically controlled. That would be my choice, you'll never have to worry about hitting the gas pedal, and ending up sitting on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck. It's more expensive to do this swap initially, but it will save money and time over the years.

Having also worked as a maintenance mechanic during my time turning wrenches, we had this saying. "Figure out how strong it needs to be, then make it 3 times stronger, it'll be just right." ;)

:focus:

Sorry yours was not built by anyone who has a clue about the 2004R.
Most people don't live within a few hundred miles of someone who can build a 2004R correctly for power.

A local 455 owner here purchased CK's great book and built his own, he also did a ton of research from the top 200 builders (lots but not everything is in the CK book).
https://www.ckperformance.com/View/G...CHNICAL-MANUAL

Here is an excellent read about 2004R specific components and how strong they are. Jake had real knowledge on them.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&postcount=29

I hear you PC, and was going down that road several years ago, and both Jake and Chris would not endorse a 200 for my car. Chris went thru one of the 200s I believe and told me there's nothing more he can do except start swapping cases. Sometimes there are issues with cases that you can't find, nothing you can do about it.

One issue with the 200s once you start building for max power is there's specific parts that are only made by a couple folks, and are not cheap. A max-effort build can peak $6k+, and there's still no guarantee. And to top that off, there's no WAY you can match the tuning or power capabilities of a 4L80e. For half the price. So where's the return on taking the 'chance'?

The drivability benefits of a computer controlled trans compared to a non-computerized one is just no match. You can tune a computerized trans to act like a daily driver under X throttle, RPM, load (map), etc, you just can't do that as well with a non. Period.

200 'users' are so proud that they can do a full-throttle high-rpm lockup, and that is cake with a 4L80e. And the ones that brag about that are the ones that are going through their' units ever year, or at least every-other year. People talk about the 'guys that do it' on YB, drag racers, but they don't mention how often they go through them. Yeah. Ask. See what they say.

Do it right, do it once. Spend a touch more than you 'have' to, and you will save it in the long run.

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OK, I cleaned up a bunch of posts in this discussion. Please keep any additional posts constructive and on topic, and not argumentative.

I already eluded to that in an earlier post regarding the shortfalls of a 200 but that particular post for some reason is no longer here.

Everything is a compromise and there ain't no magic bullet here. OP is talking street usage, so let's compare what's available to our hobby:

700/4L60's have a ridiculously low 3.06 1st gear, such that decent gears (3.23+) just gives you uncontrollable wheelspin. Also require mods to shift into 4th at WOT unless you score a B4C or Vette VB or mod what you have. And internal mods to handle power. And need adapter plate (no biggie). Nice trans if all you want to do is burnouts.

200's aren't much better with a 2.75 1st, but it is in the right direction. The internals are really spindly and you wonder how the input/intermediate shafts can survive 1100+ ft-lbs of torque (450 lb-ft engine x 2.5 converter multiplication). Obviously, they oftentimes don't, OP and me included. But they're relatively light weight and bolt into anything without mods. And if you know what you're doing will work well with fairly high HP.

4L80E's are $$ and require a brain. And heavy! And require a BFH to make fit into early A-bodies. And a custom crossmember if you have a convertible or weld new tabs on the frame.

6L90E's would be great if they didn't require surgery to make fit our ancient cars. But they're not light either. Stock they'll handle 600+ ft-lbs, or more than a 4L80E without mods.

Seems to me if you don't want to spend $$$$, best compromise is a T-400 with 2.56 gears to be able to drive on the highway without fear of getting rear-ended. All you give up is a good launch. I had a '68 Firebird 400 with exactly that combo and it was nice to drive on the street.


I've had a 200-4R in my '66 GTO with a 6600 rpm, 550-ish hp 428 and 3.73 gears for the past 25 years and runs mid-11's at 4100 lbs on sticky tires. It took lots of tuning and mods to make it survive and broke a few parts along the way. Mandatory is to have an '84-up GN VB, and set up the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts to not be too firm and not too soft; it's a balancing act so as not to shock-load the trans too much but also not burn the clutches too quickly. I typically replace the 2nd gear band and 3rd clutch pack every 5000 miles or so and consider that as normal maintenance.

If you don't do a PERFECT job of setting up the TV cable, you'll burn up the trans. If you have it shift too firmly, it will break parts.

If you're paying someone else to build these trannies for you, this is not the unit for you. Learn how to build one yourself and learn how to respect that it's living on borrowed time behind a 455. If you have the patience to manually downshift before you stand on it WOT on the highway, it will be fine.

I've set up a good number of 700-R4/4L60's for customers, a few of them are members of this Forum. One in particular was done over 20 years ago for a 1969 GTO with a pretty stout 400 in it. Never the first glitch anyplace and coincidentally he called me recently for advice on another topic and said he absolutely loves the trans. We talked a bit about the "low" first gear deal, said it's not noticed nor is the slightly bigger gear spread from 1st to 2nd some folks mention on that topic. While on the topic I only do "non-LU" for retrofitting and use custom built torque converters for them with very efficient characteristics for "normal" driving but still have excellent torque multiplication and decent flash stall speeds. Another "myth" associated with using OD's and non-LU is smoking the trans because of converter slippage. That statement is absolute and utter NONSENSE like many other regurgitated issues with many parts we continue to see on the Forums, mostly from folks with little to no experience at all with them.

I have two customers with big block Chevelle's using 700-R4's, one is behind a 496 making well over 500hp and 600tq and no issues. He runs 3.73's and I asked him once about the extra-low 1st gear and 1-2 gear spread. He said that folks bellyaching about that chit need to keep their day-jobs.....his Chevelle blasts off low 11 second runs in full street trim and no shortcomings anyplace on the launch or thru the gears that could be noticed while you are pinned against the seat and all the blood running out of your face!.....LOL......Cliff

Sounds to me like the pump rotor broke. Do you know if it had the billet 10 vane pump rotor installed?

A 4L80e is about 55lbs heavier than a TH400, that's not really that much of a compromise for an overdrive. Even a basic rebuilt 4L80e can handle like 700ft lbs plus.

A basic rebuilt 4L80e is the same money as a TH400. Sometimes cheaper. The added costs are the additional pieces you need. Once you have those extra pieces, it's a non-factor.

If you have no trans to start with, then the difference is even less of a gap, since you have to buy a trans anyway. (no loss of current investment)

.

Have you done any of the 1-2 gear swaps in the 700R4/4L60's?

200 r4
 

going to go see the guy today to see what he will do. if he fixes it for just parts ill probably run it for a little bit and maybe get the 700r4 or the 480le. i really wanted the O.D.i see a nice 700r4 in the parts for sale. too bad its on the other side of the country.
thanks Bryan

Update this thread when you find out exactly what broke please!

I'm not here to advocate the use of a 2004R transmission, but reading Cliff's comments on "non-LU" converters is worth noting.

I know there is controversy regarding it but in my opinion the best thing we did early on was to change from a lock up converter to a non lock up converter on my 2004R transmission. (That and a proper TV cable hook up)

My 2004R transmission was built to go behind my 505 with well over 600 ft.lbs. torque, used all the expensive 'billet' parts. I had some minor difficulty at first and it had to come out. While out it was then I had it changed from using a lock up torque converter. My non-LU converter was built by Continental and purchased thru Cliff. It is well coupled out on the open highway with about a 200 rpm slippage. The transmission has been in service for almost 12 years.


.

Have you done any of the 1-2 gear swaps in the 700R4/4L60's?

No, haven't even been in a 4L60 or 4L60E in at least 4 years now.

I did a 200-4R for a local customer that ran for a while behind a 350 Olds engine in a 1984 442 and now has a strong running 425 sitting in front of it, no issues anyplace. We converted it to non-LU and use a custom built converter in it.

I've seen enough folks KILL 200's doing the forced full throttle downshift at speed and not surprised this one let-go. Coincidentally a good customer of mine just purchased a custom 200 from one of the big shops for his 383 powered Corvette. On the initial test drive all was well till he went to full throttle around 45-50mph. It broke the shaft on the input drum nearly as I can remember. Took literally minutes to fix once it was out, didn't hurt anything else.....

https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/...he-input-drum/

A good idea above.....IMHO.....

200r4
 

I stopped by the trans shop at lunchtime. he was super nice said he would take care of what ever it is. i told him if need to upgrade parts i would be happy to pay for that.

one more question about the lock up. is it better to not have it? the new converter is a lock up but i didn't hook it up. also i didn't have any idea that hitting the gas and letting the trans do the down shifting was harder on it than manually downshifting. live and learn, i know now! thanks for the comments and info. ill post what the problem was when its fixed
thanks Bryan

I too am using a 200R4, and i did have mine built by Lonnie at Extreme Automatics. You may want to take a look at this if you are going to go with the lock up converter. https://shop.bowlertransmissions.com...control-module I talked with Lonnie about it, he liked the idea and he installed it when he built my trans. Unfortunately i can't tell you anything about it from experience yet, still building the car.

It is better to not have it. You don't really lose anything at cruise, and it's much more driveable without it and you don't have to fool with wiring.

I have a B&M Quicksilver shifter, so I pretty much always drive mine like a sequential transmission. It originally came out of a Monte Carlo, and the valve body has a "safety" feature that shifts 1->2 no matter what at about 5500 RPM. With the shift kit that I have in there, it's pretty much perfect every time at the strip, and I don't even really have to think from the green until 3rd.

wow i also have the quicksilver shifter and my trans is from a monte carlo ss. i cant remember who i bought it from but someone here on the boards had fit the shifter into a console. i had to do a little finish work but i think it looks great.

I beg to raise my $320 TH400 rate. 4L80 is a pesky level of dis-assy so the Labor should be 3x the TH400, but I gots trouble charging even 2x the TH400.

Surely others out there do these things. For friends, relatives, and people of that sort. :ranger: HIS

As for the Locking Converter: A nice novelty to keep: Peace of mind knowing the fluid isn't getting hot on a long highway haul. Simply put a 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor i series with a Switch to Ground. Also assures you cooling lines can go to a floorboard cooler, or...Loop-Back! if you know what your application is doing. Gotta get the 1/4 mile heat out you know.

Definitely good to run unlocked to boil accumulated moisture out the vent tube. Moisture leads to rust which leads to Babbit crystal corrosion, Drum-Band abrasion, and pitting ing the Steels. I run unlocked mostly.

200r4
 

Ok the trans guy said the main shaft snapped. we are going with shaft and pump upgrade. i will also add a cooler to the lines. thanks for the advise and opinions
thanks bryan

I picked up one of Lonnie’s 2004R (Stage 2) for the OD swap from my TH400, with 3.23 rear gear. Choose it for a variety of reasons. There are tons of arguments that agree and disagree. I did lots of research and I’ll report back later this summer on that. bb400ho, as for your original comment on what it was supposed to do. Not sure what the TQ was rated at for your tranny, but as a reference point Lonnie’s stage 1 does 500 HP and 400 TQ. Not hard to have more than 400 TQ with the 455. There is a long-standing reputable tranny shop in my city that I have dealt with for a very long time, that is addition to the meat and potatoes tranny repairs, has done these swaps (they did my original 4-speed to TH400 swap way back when). They said that they could build a beefed up 2004R but highly recommended I do some research and go to a more appropriate shop, of which there aren’t many. Straight up said their’s "might" not last in my application. And its not a race car.

And so the long journey of failures begin. I wish you the best. Please keep the thread updated on your experiences.


.

:popcorn:

Ha Ha. Me too, hope it ends well. Will keep you posted.

FWIW, when the 200 swap is mentioned on PY, the supporters always cite the turbo buick GN guys use the 200 in their cars. So I went to the buick site and read some of the posts in the transmission section.

Seems even though there are some of the top 200 builders in the country on that board that these transmissions have frequent failures. The conscientious seems to be that the the full tilt transmissions are fine up to 11 second cars, then the difference between a great builder and a mediocre builder show up quickly.

There are many swaps listed that after 2-3 transmission failures the people that own these cars switch to T400 transmission, of course the sacrifice the OD feature by going to the T400, but they feel it's worth it for reliability.

Of course they can go to a GV unit ,with a T400 but the contention is that the GV units also fail under abuse. That's not hard to believe since the GV unit was originally designed in the UK for use mostly behind 4 cylinder British cars, and the later the updated, stronger design, was used heavily in Volvo 6 cylinder cars. GV bought the rights, and manufactured the new units in the US. The basic design remains the same.

Some of the latest posts on the buick site are mentioning swapping 4L80Es into their cars because the strength is already engineered into the design, and they want OD transmissions that last longer than a few months, to a few years.

I'm not posting to start an argument, I did just as the 200 supporters suggested, and went to the buick turbo site to find out how they make the 200 live. I did that and found out that the durability is a tossup. Some people that have had 200s built by reputable builders that frequent that site, that last years, others have had transmissions built that don't make a month after installation. It seems the same here, some people can get years out of a 200, other people can't. Those buick turbo owners that haven't had good luck, went with a stronger unit (T400 or 4L80E, some 4L60Es).

I'm trying to keep an open mind, and do as the 200 supporter suggested, and found a mixed report from members on that site about 200 reliability. Instead of starting a pissin match, I suggest anyone that has an opinion, pro or con, go directly to the buick turbo site and read the posts from the owners. https://www.turbobuick.com/

As promised, some feed back. Been a long time coming with all that’s going on, and life, plus other TA tweaks ongoing.
Using Extreme Automatic Stage 2 behind a 575 plus or minus hp tq 462. Swapped out my TH400 (which was swapped in early 80s to replace OEM 4-speed) for their 2004R. Using Extreme’s 9.5" 2500 stall non-lockup torque converter and their TV cable set-up, and followed the clear adjustment manual to the letter.
Used same drive shaft with new spline, same cross member and position, no tunnel work, new (taller) transmission mount. Went in easy. My old and faithful B&M Megashifter 80694 easily changed to 4 speed.
No glitches. At this point only a few hundred miles while also dialing in new Sniper program and added timing control.
Shifts are freakin awesome. Really nice feeling transmission, very reactive, very crisp up-shifts, not harsh, and feels (seat of the pants) very strong. Fourth comes in smooth and with easy driving it slides in seamlessly. I will likely just drive with it in 3rd, and manually go to fourth on a need-be basis. For my specific needs this is a huge improvement on the TH400 shifting and personality (I used a TransGo 2 shift kit for my TH400). That said, the TH400 served me well for a long time and in the early eighties it was to go to tranny, at least where I’m from.
I will report back later with more miles on it and more sporty driving. But so far, a real big smile!!

PS My hp tq numbers are at the crank.

Yea, the 200 haters are wrong again. Imagine that. A lot of folks spend a whole bunch of money trying to shave 50 pounds out of their cars. You did it by picking the right transmission.

My 200-4R held up great, but the wholesale cost of internals was over $1,400 not counting case, converter, labor or mark-up several years ago. Today's wholesale price would be closer to $2,000 for the parts. So when a trans shop builds out either a 200 or 700 for an out-the-door price way under that, it's no wonder there are failures. Either transmission really needs a lot of beefing up to survive.

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry has been told they have a "500 horsepower" engine that is really nowhere near that, so advertising a trans to hold the phony horsepower is usually pretty safe for transmission companies. Then comes along something that actually does put out some power and the trans scatters. Meanwhile they have gotten away selling hundreds of transmissions with exaggerated capabilities to people that don't have the power to break them.

Very true Mick.

I've typically avoided any of the OD units for big power applications but have done a few 200-4R's with all the good stuff and to date they are holding up fine. Be sitting down when a shop pricing one out with all the good stuff tells you what it is going to cost.

Something else to realize here is that even if you are making "big" power you're not likely to break a lot of parts unless you take steps to get the car to hook hard. So your 200, 700 or other OD trans will probably survive pretty well without a lot of costly internal upgrades. Traction changes the game when it comes to breaking parts.

I drove and raced my car for many years with pretty much "stock" drivetrain parts. Never hooked all that hard nor did I break anything anyplace.

When I installed the first 455 engine only making 1hp/CID and about 540 tq I spent some time with the suspension and tires to the car to hook hard.

I broke two 8.5 "S" type center sections in two track outings.

Next outing I twisted up the driveshaft so I stopped racing the car long enough to upgrade EVERYTHING behind the engine because I broke something just about every time I went to the track!

It was costly but I have't had any issues since other than twisting the spring perches off the axle tubes which simply required better welds to hold them in place........Cliff

I was just explaining this issue to some on another thread, and was trying to explain by using the mono leaf perch with multi leafs, and eliminating the upper pad, you can have the leaf pin pass thru the upper perch and completely eliminate the issue.


.

That's likely part of the issue, but the real issue is that horsepower doesn't break things, torque does. It's easy to make a 455 that makes over 500ft lbs of toque and less than 400hp before 5000rpm. My car is above 400ft lbs at the wheels by 3700rpm and holds that to 5000rpm, and doesn't touch 400rwhp until 5500.

Smaller displacement motors (especially turbo motors) can touch that "500hp" number above 6000rpm, but the transmission is never going to see the torque that a 455 makes at launch. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen a transmission break at the end of a run. They break in the burnout box or off the hit.

Disagree. You think a car with a 5000 stall that does 1.3 second 60 foot times doesn't hit harder? It is horsepower doing that.

A length of bar and I can make 500 ft.lbs with my hands... but an Olympic athlete would be hard pressed to make much more than 2.5 HP. Horsepower is the energy that breaks chit.

A friend of mine ran a 8.5 diff running 9's for two years at the track (full weight 2nd gen F-body), never broke it. Then he upgraded the car big. New rear, trans and twin turbo running 8's

I originally avoided the horsepower/torque argument by saying "does put out some power" which I thought would skip the on-going argument. The formula converting torque to horsepower or vise-versa gives a value based on output at a given RPM. "Horsepower is torque at work" comes to mind.

"So if you multiply torque (in pound-feet) by engine speed (in RPM) and divide the product by 5,252, RPM is converted to "radians per second" and you can get from torque to horsepower -- from "pound-feet" to "foot-pounds per second."

If I break a shaft with 500 foot pounds of torque at 3,000 RPM, then I also broke the shaft with 285.6 horsepower at 3,000 RPM.

A good test for myth-busters.. Apply two thousand ft-lbs at just 5 RPM to a driveline that is locked solid.. the ring and pinion would NEVER break..

I don't think a purpose built drag car with a 5000 stall that came to the track on a trailer is what we were discussing here in the "street" section.
And no, it isn't "horsepower" doing that. It's using a stall convertor to allow the inertia of the engine to deliver a high amount of torque to the drive line. Horsepower isn't a kinematic force. Horsepower can't break anything because it's something humans invented to standardize a measurement of torque. It isn't the RPMs (the other variable in the HP equation) that break transmissions, it's the twisting force (which is torque).

A fair amount of LOL here. Keep it up. :popcorn: