Floor Insulation
 

I'm going down the rabbit hole on my car again. LOL! Converting to LS engine. Rewiring whole car, etc. My floor is in very good shape. Has some minor rust that needs cleaned up. Also pulled the old nasty insulation off of the inside of the firewall. Going to insulate with the stuff linked below. I used it in my K5 Blazer. Good stuff that's reasonably priced. But I got to thinking about the heater box. It has no insulation at all. Even with the heater closed off, it has to be radiating a lot of heat into the cabin. Anyone insulate their heater box? Not sure if that foil face insulation would be good inside the heater box. Thoughts?


https://www.homedepot.com/p/E-O-12-i...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

I don’t think it radiates that much heat. I’d be afraid of the insulation falling off and jamming things up, especially when repeatedly being around 200 degree air.

The metal in your roof and body is likely a far greater heat source than the heater case.

I was thinking about spraying it with Lizard Skin or something. Definitely won't put any stick on stuff in the heater box.

The roof and body aren't 200F though. I will be doing the floor pan. The transmission and exhaust radiate a lot of heat into the floor.

I'm at the same point ... Looking for something that has a good mix of insulation properties and sound deadening ... I'm sure technology has come a long ways in that regard in the last 50 years. Can't decide between the super dense type stuff, or the lighter stuff that insulates better.

In general I lean towards better insulation, the car is stock so not a lot of exhaust noise, and it has AC so I'd rather live with a little more noise, less heat if there is an option.

I really like the Frost King stuff for value and function. The Liard Skin is tempting. But they have two coatings for insulation or sound deadening. Not that I'd ever be tearing the flooring out. But I'm not wild about the permanence of the spray coating. who knows what crazy $h!t I might want to do in the future. I think I will try some in the heater box though.

I'm still going down the rabbit hole on my car right now. Goes something like this so far, 1) 455 block cracked 2) Convert to LS engine 3) Might as well rewire the car 4) Might as well patch firewall holes and repaint dash 5) Might as well remove all of the nasty factory insulation from the floor and firewall.....LOL!

I use a layer of Noico followed by a layer of Thermozite foil backed felt.

Don

I'll take a look at that.

dhutton ... I like the look of that Thermozite a lot, just what I was looking for, fiber material sandwiched with foil ... combined with the Noico that's got to be like a Mercedes inside. The Thermozite looks like it would be excellent on the roof.

I learned about the Thermozite from Tracy at Recovery Room. If it’s good enough for him it’s good enough for the likes of me. Great product imho.

I used to be a Dynamat user but a friend gave me some Noico and I prefer it now.

Don

Thanks Don for the tip on the Thermozite!
Lightweight heat reduction in front floor pan/trans hump area are my main concern.

I put in dynamat ( Eastwood version) and rolled it into ever crevice.
The ceiling ( outter skin) gets over 200 on a dark car. I used a thin insulation with reflection one one side. About the thickness of reflectix

Mr Don, Where all do you put the Thermozite and where do you put the Noico?



I assume floors and firewall

How about inner/outer door?
Quarter panels wheel wells?
Trunk?


Do you use any of the Noico red liner or just the butyl mat?


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I put Noico on floors, roof, doors, cowl, firewall, inside quarter panels and on the trunk floor. Just the butyl mat. I use Thermozite everywhere except inside door and quarters where it would get wet. I also carpet the trunk. It makes a huge difference in road noise.

Don

I'm liking this conversation ... where most people are looking for performance from their GTO, I'm looking for bone stock performance, but I want the ride, AC, quietness and comfort to be better than original and as close to a modern luxury can as I can get.

Wow, the Thermozite is like unobtanium right now. Few places on the other side of the country (CA) I can get it, but shipping is very high. When ebay is out of something you know it's scarce :)

Update: Found some, Sailrite in IN had some, reasonable price and shipping, and I've ordered sewing materials from them before. Ordered 6 yards, about $27/yd, $22 in shipping. Get it while you can. Should be close to enough to do the roof and floor. Now to get some Noico.

dhutton .... which Noico do you use? The 80 mil with foil, or the 150 mil without (Red)?

80 mil with foil.

Don

Thank you for this info!


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Don, since you've used both products. Do you have a good idea of how much the combination of two materials added to the weight of your Pontiac?

Have several ongoing projects & a customer's '70 GTO incoming that we prev ordered repro tar based front floor & trans hump insulation, but am planning a thin foil backed insulation for the roof. I plan on weighing the tar based floor insulation for that car, as I would rather save weight in its place in several other projects.

Sorry no idea. The Noico is not as heavy as Dynamat as near as I can tell. Noico is just a sound deadener, it doesn’t give significant thermal insulation imho. Thermozite is very light but gives decent thermal insulation.

My builds are purely focused on reducing NVH and heat versus shaving weight.

Don

I did the FrostKing material for the sound deadening and heat reflection and used reproduction pad for the feel and fit.

How about rust converters, etc.? I have some minor rust that I need to deal with before I insulate. Wire wheel and then etching primer? Eastwood makes some rust treatment products.

Are you guys doing this insulation on the floors and then using just a standard non-backed carpet? I like to use the mass-backed molded carpet to kill noise but it’s so thick I don’t know if I’d want to add more under it.

The only rust treatment I trust is Ospho and SPI Epoxy Primer following the SPI instructions.

Yep I'm a little concerned about the thickness of the layers. I figure the 80mil Noico is about the same, a bit less than the OEM tar stuff. Then at least 1/4" of the Thermozite, and I planned on using the backed carpet too.

Figure I could taper them off before they get to the door sills so no real problem there, but under the console, seat belt bolts etc. might get kind of tight.

I just ordered some Ospho. Thanks for the tip! I've used similar products before (Rust Mort). Looks like the same stuff.

On a product with a single foil face, would the foil go towards the heat source? That would probably be the outside since I won't be doing much winter driving.

I know the Noico stuff has to go foil to the inside cause of the adhesive, what about the Thermozite?

For me it depends on where it’s going. Floors foil up because I feel it’s a better surface to mate with the carpet. Roof foil up because I feel it gives a better glue bond to keep it from falling down.

Don

When doing the floor ... I'm hesitant to put the wiring under the Noico, but it does seem like it should go under the Thermozite.

How did you handle that, and did you use adhesive to bond the Thermozite to the top of the Noico?

Thanks

I have used both DAP Landau adhesive and 3M 77 spray adhesive with good results. The 3M 77 is more convenient.

Don

You know, as I'm installing this Noico I'm thinking what a total pain it's going to be to remove someday, this stuff sticks very very well. Specially when I put it on the inside of body cavities like below the quarter glass .. would be no fun at all if body work needed to be done on the outside that required any welding, it would have to be somehow removed from the inside first.

I'm covering most of the panel behind the rear seat also ... I notice while tapping on it that it's like a drum, it must produce a ton of the inside noise.

Can you post some pics?

Yep, I'll post some pics tomorrow of my bizarre patchwork of Noico :)

Here is a photo of the process so far ... sorry it's kind of busy, got a lot going on in there right now.

Probably not the right way, but I sit in there with a sheetrock knife, some scissors and a heat gun and cut various smallish pieces to fit and roll them on. I can tell that the first hot summer day this stuff is going to be on there so good I'd have to scrape it off with a razor blade.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...5&d=1635968070

Are any of you guys using Noico on the package shelf? Seems to me from all my tap tap tap experiments that a huge source of noise is the rear seat back and package shelf.

Yes. And cover it with Thermozite. Will reduce cabin noise considerably.

Don

Thank you. I have some "package shelf insulation" I ordered with the new package shelf, wasn't expensive so maybe I'll replace that with the Thermozite which I'm sure has better thermal properties.

I think you and I have made the same progress. I’m using Killmat 80 mil on the metal and I will cover that with Boommat under carpet layer.

With the Killmat for noise/vibration you don’t have to cover every square inch. Just look for flat areas and cover the middle. Curved areas do not vibrate as easily so it is not as important to cover those areas.

There is no right or wrong way to cover; the only mistake is to not clean/prep and not rolling the material down to get good adhesion.

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I also used a few strips to control water around the floor vents in my 78 Trans Am. I was able to test with a hose and the dam seems to work.

Good Luckhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...58bb4134be.jpg


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Yep I noticed while installing by tapping things ... no every square inch doesn't have to be covered, just the areas that flex enough to act like a drum. For sound a person could probably use half the product and have the same results. For insulation, might help to have more, but I think the top layer (like Boom mat) does more for insulation.

Just finished the package shelf .... astounding difference ... went from sounding like banging on a garbage can lid to almost complete silence.

The floor vent areas you MUST your a bunch of thick caulk or it WILL leak, even from a car wash, by hand. 100 or more hours fixing these on customers cars and my own.

Formula ... could you be more specific about where the vent needs extra sealant?

Is it to prevent water from running into the interior when the body cavity gets filled up? Or down where the vent wall meets the floor?

Like most 68's mine had some damage in that area ... looked like it was because there was no drain in that cavity ... but then an open drain hole would short circuit some of the air flow it seems like. Would it be smart to drill a drain hole in the bottom of the cavity?

I went with the 40 mil Kilmat plus a layer of Dynamat's Dynaliner for thermal insulation.

I will try to explain what happens.
Water /rain / car wash/etc Enters the wiper transmission vent area of the cowl.
Water then runs "over the edge' of the inner cowl ( or air horn ) area.
The run off point or "Drip edge" is Directly above the plastic vent piece.
The drip area is INTERIOR to the big "Flange" that's on it. This makes sure if you open the vent and its raining, that water doesn't come through the vent.
So the water will head towards the inner air horn at the point where the vent seals to the car.
The fit of the vent is NOT at all great and requires THICK amounts of the gray 3m Caulking, or water can get by and slip down the inside of the air horn, which is inside the car, and on to the floor.
This "shouldn't" happen on new cars as they were tested for leaks before the carpet was installed.
I repaired Plenty under warranty for leaking in this area and have had 2 of my own cars leak AFTER I rebuilt the cars.
The other place water cones in and looks similar is the Inner metal door seal channel.
At the top front of the roof where the A pillar hooks to the roof there MUST be a big amount of caulk. A roof gutter chrome will make the problem worse if it leaks at all.
The caulk here fills the big gap left when the gutter seal stainless is installed to the top of the A pillar.
I spent many hours inside cars as a teen watching where water leaks were coming from.
At the dealer we even used food coloring in some cases to spot the water faster.
Water Leaks INSIDE the car were probably The most irritating problems customers had.
The Fisher body "Flush and Dry" system was developed in the early 60's and was used in Unibody Chevy II's and full frame cars, as well as subframe cars for decades.
my '68 GTO had a factory leak in the side cowl vents.
"Flush and Dry" was taught at GM school on interiors , SUSPENSION and was THE most discussed system there relating to customer comfort and recall work.
The System works by allowing water to run down the inner cowl or air horn, and INTO the ROCKER PANEL The water then flowed DOWNHILL to the rear of the rocker where there is a rubber 1 way flap.
The water exited UNDER PRESSURE and DRIED out the whole system, when car was driven.
The pressure was based on the pressure at the base of the Windshield. ( Windscreen for those in UK) . This pressure is about 10-15 lbs at 60 mph ( roughly)
This same pressure was used on 60's Camaro Z-28 with cowl plenum air cleaners, and Trans Am with a working shaker scoop.
This system is only 1 of two reasons that ALL GM cars were set to be 1/2 to 1.5 INCHES LOWER in the rear, and is why so many ROT at the base of the fender ( cars jacked up in back)
The other reason is weight transfer and handling.
...Rant off... hope someone actually reads this.
LOOK at where the caulk WAS .... the sticky back you put on needs to GO away. IF water gets inside it from up top, AND IT WILL, it will have an easy trip inside the car at one of your "slice points"
This job, you Never want to do twice..
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...0&d=1636313838

Hey, I read it, very informative thank you.

I was wondering why I saw so much sealant up at the top corner of the A pillar.

I'm going to pull my vent back out and do what I can to make sure it isn't a problem. Maybe even pour some water in there while I can still get at everything.

Thanks again.

At the BOTTOM of the rear window area inside the panel there is a DRAIN to the Rocker panel. These are often Clogged from the factory with tar used on the inner wheel house. This Drain MUST be completely CLEAR to keep moisture out of that bottom of the quarter and out of the rear floor area.
This drain goes into the Fisher Body "Flush and Dry" system I mentioned earlier.

OK guys I'm ready to move on to the Dry portion of our test :D...
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f347ab2f_c.jpg

I'll check that area tonight, I vacuumed the bottom of that cavity well but I didn't reach in and feel around for any openings.

When I was prepping the body for primer I got a new respect for what was going on with all the various passages. I always assumed it was just done for stronger stampings or something, but obviously there is a method to their madness.

BTW ... for those of you have have installed a sound deadener, and then insulation like Thermozite .. is there any problem getting the carpet to fit with the added thickness? I just ordered carpet ... got it with the standard jute backing, I was afraid with the "mass" backing that I'd have too much thickness stacked up on the floor.