I DIDNT KNOW PONTIAC MADE THIS
 

Guys i took a trip with a buddy into MASSACHUSETTS. We went to the springfield armory museum. WOW was i impressed & recommend it to anyone who can make it there & see all thens & how they were made. Truely an incredible museum. BUT DID YOU KNOW.........
there was a section of machine guns. there was a gun ive never seen before & IT WAS BIG from a jet fighter or bomber im not sure but you werent carrying this puppy. It was a 20mm machine gun MADE BY PONTIAC..... incredible!!!!!!!!!!!
now if i could only pick 1 up & mount to roof of my judge...... & will see how the weapon ban goes.....
I recommend this trip to any & all into guns........

I've been to the Springfield Armory a few times, as it's right in my backyard. Great place, very interesting. I however havent seen that machine gun you're talking about. Does anyone have know anything about this?

Was it like this?

http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/dd/5d/8ea4_1.JPG

During WWII, all US factories converted to production of war related items, as commanded by the military. For example, Pontiac made guns, Chrysler made ammunition, Ford made B-24s, . Goodyear made Corsairs, Ford made Jeeps (although not of the Ford design, Willys designed it).

Like all the other auto manufacturers, Pontiac had contracts to built equipment for the war effort in 1942-1945. Among other things they built the 20mm Oerlikin antiaircraft cannon, the 40mm Bofors field gun (the one in the picture above) and axles for M-5 tanks.

Almost all US manufacturers played a roll...
 

I don't think it would have been good buisness not to.

Some of these old wartime Ads are hard to find.

Did you take any pic of the gun?

PMD also made a cannon that is on Battleship Massachusetts. Our local chapter made a donation toward it's restoration after the 1998 Convention in Sturbridge on the request of John Sawruk.

There are also several other pieces made by auto manufacturers on board.

Don't forget that all American car companies stopped building cars fron 1942-1945.

I heard the GM Turbo Hydramatic Division made Torpedos.

...and Mitsubishi's bombed Pearl Harbor! :mad:

GMnext.com posting on WWII production
 

I went to GMnext.com and grabbed this list from their history section that I posted in the first place. There is also a scan of a photo album honoring the Milford Proving Ground efforts in WWII which I will leave as an exercize for the digitally skilled.
The story at the end is true and I was the one to take the call. Pontiac did make artillery shells but had no HE

Look closely for the joke at the end of the list
And if you have anything to contribute to the WIKI, please do
Thanks
================================================== ======


Here is a list of the WWII General Motors War Material Production 1940-45: (This is the best list I could assemble from the contemporary sources at war's end)

198,000 Diesel engines for tanks & landing craft
206,000 Airplane engines
13,000 Complete bombers and fighter planes
97,000 Aircraft propellors
301,000 Aircraft gyroscopes
38,000 Tanks, tank destroyers and armored vehicles
854,000 Trucks, including amhibious DUKWs
190,000 Cannons
1,900,000 Machine guns and submachine guns
3,142,000 Carbines
3,826,000 Electric motors
11,111,000 Fuses
360,000,000 Ball and roller bearings
119,562,000 Shells
39,181,000 Cartridge cases
540,619,000 Grand Total

To this day, the government has not forgotten GM's contribution.

EPA call recently to inquire if there was any leftover High Explosive (HE) on the Pontiac site, After we posed some logical questions: Why ship HE from the Coast to Pontiac, load the artillery shells, then ship these things back to the Coast. Loading the HE into the shells should properly be done at the port just prior to loading the transport ship.

EPA was satisfied with our logic and had no further questions.

Ralph Reinhart

I don't recall ever seeing that in the Armory, and I've been at least 10 times (I live right down the street;)) so now I'm going to have to go again. Thanks for pointing it out though, I will definitely look for it.:D

What would happen if we ever needed that production capabilities again? Would we be able to convert Toyota's plants from building cars to miltary equipment?

the gun is in the viewing room with all the chairs on the right hand side when you enter i guess its a video room . enclosed in glass are multiple machine guns & at the very end to the right, the biggest gun in there is the PONTIAC 20mm VERY IMPRESSIVE. i had my iphone & took a shot but that camera has no flash & isnt the best.. i will review & post if good enough. I LEARN SOMETHING NEW EVERYDAY!!!!!! but what a place!!!!!!!

PONTIAC 20mm
 

How about a decal for cars.... insured by PONTIAC 20MM!!!!

Soon after the 20mm, PMD "productized" the Central Foundary to make Nodular Iron parts.

http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/dd/5d/8ea4_1.JPG

Pontiac, Kicking Japanese ass since 1942 :old:
Next mission, 24 hrs of Daytona.

Not meant to be politically correct

ho428, that's STILL better looking than an Aztec! :D

They didn't have a choice. The government was able to order GM (and everyone else) to stop civilian production and only produce wartime products. They also told the various companies what to build.

As the story goes, the government wanted GM to participate in the B-29 consortium. GM really didn't want to, arguing that they were already at 100% capacity with the other stuff they were making. GM got the bright idea that if they had a project that was just as important to the war effort as the B-29 maybe they could convince the government they shouldn't be in the B-29 program.

Enter the Fisher P-75 Eagle. (Body by Fisher)

After searching around a bit, they decided to build a fighter plane. Since GM didn't have a lot of experience building fighters, they decided that using existing parts would help. They took 2 Allison V-12s and mated them together, placed the engine behind the pilot (much like a P-39), and added counter-rotating propellers. They used the P-40 wings, F4U landing gear and an A-24 tail.

The resulting plane was a miserable failure and the program was canceled late 1944.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/fac...et.asp?id=2221

post victory obligations at GM
 

When I started at GM in the 70's, I met a millwright who had started his apprenticeship in 45, just in time to enjoy the transition to peace time manufacturing.

His first job at the plant was to destroy, torch and bury more than half the Starrett, Browne & Sharpe, and Lufkin precision tools in the entire plant with special emphasis for the stuff new in the box. I was stunned at this cause I knew how much precision tools cost. "Why?" I asked.

It was because the precision tool manufacturers had surged their production at the War Department's request and since no one could predict how long WWII would last, the manufacturers made about a 50 year supply in 3 years with the stipulation that when Peace came the excess would be destroyed and not stockpiled otherwise the companies would go bankrupt for lack of a market and their highly skilled workers would be cast adrift.

The lesson from this is that the above listed production was the result of a large population of skilled workers, and general purpose machines and lines at the plants.

Once the plants acquired more specialized equipment and became more economic in their production facilities, they lost the ability to surge by converting to other products.

And the lack of skilledtrades of all kinds impedes the ability to convert from cars to tanks.

GM is short on the skills that are necessary. China prolly has plenty so watch out.

Regards
Citydesk175

One of many links to info about the pontiac canon
 

Interesting story CityDesk, thanks for sharing.

I recall reading that manufacturers thought the GIs returning home would associate their name on (whatever piece of equipment) and fondly remember "it" saved their life, made it easier or whatever...then they would go out and buy one (car)

Kind of a "delayed" marketing theory to the troops overseas. This was forward thinking, imo, and may be why they DID make the posters and ads illustrating the equipment they made.

The best post that I have seen in the loby in a long time, Thanks for the info.

Fisher Wartime Ad...
 

This one I have is from Fisher Body Works, with I think the before mentioned bomber.

if i keep learning i will keep sharing... i thought this was soooo cool i was blown away.

Here are a couple of ads provided by CityDesk for an earlier thread:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../WWIIPontI.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...WWIIPontII.jpg

CD - do you want me to post some samples from the album?

K

A few more (non Pontiac) General Motors ads, also courtesy of CityDesk -

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...B194X-0056.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...B1944-0001.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...C194X-0040.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...C194X-0041.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...C194X-0042.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...C194X-0045.jpg

And - lastly - I was not able to convert the album to files such that it could be viewed here, so I will provide a link to the GM website where it is covered.

This photo album was produced in 1945. It documents an open house held at the GM Milford Proving Ground celebrating the war's end and GM's efforts. You will see tanks and other ordinance being tested and on display at the MPG.

This album was in the possession of CityDesk, who provided it to the GM Heritage Center where it now resides and is on display.

http://wiki.gmnext.com/wiki/index.ph...n_World_War_II

Please let me know if the link doesn't work or if you need some kind of security password to view.

K

The album is still in my hands, GM just scanned it at high res and the scans are in the hands of heritage ctr, GM photo archives etc.
That book was nowhere to be found in any GM archive till I found it at Salvation Army Store in Pontiac MI for five for a dollar and brought it in.

I had the picture of the tanks enlarged to 24x36 and mounted on foam-core and then sent the mounted pix to a lot of GM executives including Lutz and Jim Queen who are the Corporate reps to the GM Diversity Veterans group.

Thanks to Bob and Jim for their continued support of GM veterans and NG & Reserve employees too.

The GM ads
 

I bought all those GM WWII ads at the same Salvation Army Store
They had a huge collection of Life magazines dating back to WWII and wanted $4.00 plus per issue for them.
I kept looking through the pile and bought a few but blanched at the price

after a few weeks, I went through the stack and noticed that at the bottom, there was a pile of loose pages and covers.... I stacked up all the car ads, the WWII ads and covers and interesting full articles I could find. I had a 6 inch pile and got it all for $4.00.

I sorted out the GM ads: WWII and car ads too and took the package to my local GM photo archives guy and he had them all scanned for the archive and returned them with a disc

I ordered a complete set of the WWII ads in 24x36 mounted on foam-core and had them delivered to the GM Vets group for their annual Veterans Day get together at the Tech Center in Warren.

Whe I got to the meeting, the posters were on display all around the room. I mentioned to Ken MacLeod, the president of the Vets Group that I would like Lutz and Queen to take their pick of the posters for their offices. The two VP's cheerfully chose a poster. (It is not everyday that one can change the decor of a GM VP's office)
Hopefully the posters are still there reminding visitors that GM did something for the country when it was desperately needed

Anyway, the ads that Keith has posted are all proudly displayed at every Veteran's Day meeting in Warren and will continue to be there for a long time.

citydesk175

Neat story! Thanks for sharing and posting, guys.

I always liked Goodwill and SA, but havent found amy Rembrandts or treasures like this before....:)

On the subject of marketing I posted;

Was PONTIAC allowed to put their name or logo on any war material like the 40mm field gun?

Was the original ad you found blacked out showing the ton and units they produced?

Its on the Chiefs head with the three factories ad.

Did they have a War Dept release on the back? Just curious.
Jeff

Pontiac Motor Division also produced transit buses for civilian and perhaps military use during the war. These buses were built in the Pontiac, MI "daylight" assembly plant.

TKS
The ad appears as published
no release cause it was in Life Magazine

check out the photo album for the thank you letters at the back

Regards
Citydesk175

BTW
I bought a fine art print at SA for 45 bucks
Called Parke West Galleries with the Bar code from the back
They gave me a cert of auth and an appraisal of $3,950 (because I already had an account........ never expect a freebie, and sight unseen from a reputable dealer)

The appraisal is prolly way high in today's market but I love the print and I am going to keep it. (signed, numbered, framed and on hand made paper that is characteristic of the artist's work)

Awesome stuff. Thank you all for sharing.

Would be cool to see someone roll one of those into a POCI show.

and a GM built Avenger Bomber too
how about an example of each from the WWII production list.

Many factories made whatever they could during hard times just to keep people busy:
from the Winchester scissors that I have in my collection to the Chrysler made log-splitters that were made for foremen and their friends when Chrysler was in the sales toilet

There is an article in "GM Folks" Volume 4 number 11 (November 1941) on the Pontiac Oerlikon gun.

In the Volume 5 number 3 issue (March 1943), is an article where Pontiac was awarded the Navy "E" for production.

Jon.

A little off-topic and from a different era, but the Hemi-powered air raid sirens that Chrysler built during the cold war were very cool.

That M2 I'm standing behind in my avatar was made by AC Delco. :D

Thanks Keith and CityDesk for posting this interesting material.
Finding these at the Salvation Army must have surprised you CityDesk! Great Finds!

nice Ma deuce
To quote (I think Jack D. Ripper in DR Strangelove) "I wish I had one of those...... but only for peaceful purposes!"

regards
Citydesk175
Vietnam 69-71
We all have our own wars to fight or remember

It was wonderful and I am happy we could post these images at the appropriate time and place.

I just posted some of my favorite images at footnote.com under my name "citydesk175" and it includes my best ever catch at SA "Rapture 2" for $45.00.
check it out.

regards
Citydesk175

Help CityDesk175!

I cant find it. It pulls up over 7,000 docs with "Rapture 2" in text.

Tried putting in: citydesk175 as first and last name, Neither will work.

http://www.footnote.com/image/171116435/
lets try as a link

hope that helped
 

I went back to footnote and messed around
very powerful databases there
but theres a learning curve
see u later
citydesk175

i love those old ads......... awsome!!!! ID LOVE TO REPOP THEM......

i love those old ads......... awsome!!!! ID LOVE TO REPOP THEM......

What does "repop" mean?
maybe I can help
Regards
citydesk175

re create /copy them
btw,,nice entertaining thread
keep it up

repop is short for REPRODUCE. i own a sign & graphics shop & i can repopp & enlarge just about anything.... i think old war posters would sell. Heck i want some

I went into Sallies' and saw the framed print without a price. I recognized the print because I had seen works by the artist "Krasnyansky" on recent cruises where Park West has auctions. Since the work was a match in every way and framed too. I asked for a price and the store manager spent many minutes in a pricing huddle with her staff (actually just her) and she arrived at a safe price of $45.00. I said "Deal" and brought it home. My son helped me bring this 40x50 framed print in and we laid it on the kitchen island face down.

Our shipboard art auctioneers hang up art a couple of times per auction so that the attendees can only see the back of the frame. Then the auctioneer announces a "special " price that might be 60% of the listed starting price. The audience bids sight-unseen on these "polar bears in a snowstorm" and on average get the best deal of the auction. "Hold your number card up and everybody gets one."

At this point mywife arrived home and noticed this gigantic frame upside down in her kitchen. "What piece of "stuff" did you buy this time?" "Its a polar bear, go ahead and look at it." My son turned it over and she said: "We are going to find a place for that!"
And everyone was happy.
==============================
And I have to visit Footnote.com a lot more <S>

Regards
Citydesk175

Management in the Old Days
 

I just spoke to a recently retired friend who had spent some of his formative years at Willow Run. He told me vignettes of longer GM stories from Willow Run. Many of them sounded like the type I had heard at Pontiac and I can assume the GM Culture is universal even in a red headed stepchild division liek Pontiac.

One of his stories ground on me personally because it was about a suggestion that went south. A machinist figured a way to do a cut that was fractions of a second faster and spread out over thousands of parts, really added into money. Somehow the guy's partner figured out how to put a very subtle flaw in his settings and produced a load of parts before they bounced and were traced back to his machine.

Meanwhile, our hero (you remember... the one with the IDEA) polished up his suggestion submission and took it to the Foreman who laugh in his face about it cause his partner had already used up every cent of the guy's savings estimatein the suggestion. "I don't wanna see either one of you for a long time so get out! So much for a great suggestion and 20 grand suggestion award.

===========================================

How else can you waste money in a subtle but very expensive way? My Uncle told me of a sheet metal cutter operator who was off on the dayhis boss wanted a dozen pieces 2 feet by 6 feet in a hurry. He had a millwright or somesuch operate the machine and every piece of metal when cut measured out at 22 inches by 6 feet. The boss went ballistic and the Millwright spent an hour looking the machine over to find out the fault.

Finally, the Millwright remembered he had used the other guy's metal yardstick (by Starret or Lufkin) instead of his own. Sure enough, the yardstick was 34 inches long with inches 1 and 2 chopped off very neatly. The enraged boss had the Millwright cut the yardstick into 2 inch pieces and took them to his desk.

The next day the guy was back and could not find his yardstick. He was told his boss had it. The boss got to ask the fatal question: "How long have you been adusting for the shortness of your yardstick?" "About 15 years." "You wont have to do that anymore" And the boss handed him all the pieces of his yardstick.

More to come soon