NOS vs reproductions
 

I posted a version of this in a facebook group I recently joined only asking about batter y cables, and frankly I don't expect much of a response from it so I am re-posting it here with additional questions.

I don't have many NOS parts, but I will buy them if the price seems right (aka: I can afford it) or if the part is unavailable, or the currently offered reproduction/s is/are wrong.

A recent facebook discussion got me thinking about some correct stuff I want for my car;
The three thing that come to forefront of my mind are:
- battery cables
- spiral shocks
- weatherstrip

On the subject of battery cables;
I am seeing a disconnect between the OEM part numbers from my catalogue, and their cross reference versus some of the aftermarket replacements.

Has anyone in had opportunity to compare reproduction 'spring clip' cables versus the originals?

I have two MPC's for my car, the oldest one being dated November 1974;
for my negative cable it lists (grp 2.431) #8907535;
Application according to this catalogue is:
- 1970/8cyl; 22" long; bolt type*; no secondary lead; sup 6289160
- 1971-1972/6cyl; 22" long; no secondary lead
- 1971/8cyl; exc 455 eng- std - 22" long; sup 6289160
* = I am guessing this means that by November 1974 the part being sold for my car as an over the counter replacement was no longer a spring ring cable.

Unless I am mistaken, this is the one that everyone resells for my car:
https://www.lectriclimited.com/batte...y-cable-121259
it has the correct spring ring end, but has a wholly different part number (2982791)

I am not saying this supplier is wrong, but I have already found many items that are being sold as "correct" for my car, are actually a repop for another application, just being told as correct for me.
(probably the worst offender to date are reproduction air cleaner decals)

The positive cables, show that something is REALLY going askew (unless an early MPC might shed some more light on the subject);
MY MPC lists (grp 2.432) 6296738;
Application according to this book is:
- 1970/8cyl engine
(/\ that's all!)

but if we look at the site I linked on the negative cable, for positive cables, there are two cables listed;
#27640 = wo/RA
#35957 = w/RA
There is no real description, and one of them (35957) has a picture of a cable that has period correct looking shielding on it.
Now, for those who don't know the cables are routed different for RAIII/RAIV cars vs non non-Ram Air cars, but my MPC says they use the same cables.

On the subject of (spiral) shocks;
I might be the youngest member here to have pulled OE spiral shocks off my car;
I did it in either 1997, or 1998;
One was flat out broken - you could hold the thin end and by shaking your hand up and down, the shock would compress and decompress with no resistance;
The other shock wasn't much better;
Had twenty-year old me known better, I would have saved them to get them rebuilt at a later time, but I tossed them.
Are there any shocks that are bang on replacements, that are either:
1) not junk*
2) not priced redonkulously**

* = I have read time and again that repop spiral shocks are garbage.
** = I seem to recall reading of better shocks that (at least my recollection from that time was that they) were prohibitively priced.

My two go-to's are Ames and CI;
CI doesn't list spiral shocks for my car;
Ames lists them but does not reccomend them for cars that are "driven frequently"(!?)

On the subject of weatherstrip;
I found a guy in my state who may have NOS stuff, but it won't be cheap;
Am I correct in recalling that none of the readily available stuff is any good?
(there is one member here whom I spoke to about this, and he seems to be of the mind that NOS is inarguably the best, and that alone makes me incline to spend quite probably more money that I would otherwise be comfortable spending on this stuff.)

I'd earnestly love to hear from any members here who might have some insight to share with me.

To me, NOS means that the part was made during or within a few years of the model year. NOS= New OLD Stock
For those parts that GM has made for 20 or 30 years, I try to go by the packaging design of the box/bag/wrapper as GM has often changed that design and you can get some sort of an idea when the part was made. But that doesn't always work either. Sellers often mention that "box not included" or depending upon the honesty of the seller whether the part is actually period correct NOS, current production NOS that you can still buy at a GM dealer or a reproduction. There are a few sellers of NOS parts that I trust and have had good luck with.

And you have to be careful of non-GM aftermarket parts that were made during the time. Some after market manufacturers would copy the design of the GM / Delco parts and / or packaging down to the same lettering font but leave out trademark design elements in the hopes that the consumer wouldn't notice. It happened then, happens now. But some sellers (Ebay) will sell these parts as GM NOS.
It's all a crapshoot and a learning game. Once you learn who to trust it gets easier, but not fool proof.

AFAIK, Ames, Parts Place, Inline Tube, and OPG are the major manufacturers of reproduction Pontiac parts. And they wholesale parts to each other. Everyone knows how they advertise and how they deal with the customer. I applaud those vendors who are attempting to reproduce authentic parts. I can understand the up-front costs to do so are high and they need to consolidate similar part numbers in order to try and make a profit. But at least they should say that they do. I suppose you can say the end seller should let the customer know the differences and I think Ames is pretty good at it as opposed to OPG where everything they sell is "a Perfect Fit". But it often falls upon the customer to determine what is good enough for them.

I agree.

I also acknowledge that sometimes within the first couple years parts were changed.

MY example of the battery cable was a decisive one because I know that in the early 1970's GM went away from the spring ring cables, and to the best of my knowledge/understanding the current part being sold at the time of my oldest MPC was a replacement that used a bolt and nut instead of the spring ring;
While the reproduction negative cable does have a spring ring end, it doesn't have the correct part number.

I highly Doubt many folks who would actually "drive" their cars would install NOS spiral shocks.
Ever heard of Delco Pleasurizers?
These were created to replace the 1 way valve piss poor spiral shocks.
The repop spiral shocks are nearly identical ( minus a date stamp) and even have a warning that they suck for daily use.
Technology has been at gas charged dual valve shocks for a while.
Spiral shocks ( same exact part number) were used on a whole lot of GM cars, besides F bodys. I posted the parts manual on this a couple years ago, with highlights.
Spiral shocks, NOS or used are museum pieces, OR just conversation pieces.

Dealerships had upgraded cables after like 1972 .

I have no knowledge of the part #'s, etc., but I will tell you this from experience. The reproduction spring ring battery cables are NOT exact duplicates of NOS or original ones. The reproduction ends are bulkier and simply bigger. I questioned the maker of these (M&H Electric, IIRC) years ago when they first came out. They told me that if they made them exactly like the originals they would crack and break the first time you mashed the springs together to install them. Evidently the lead was so much better back in the day.

Ok, thanks for this.
I have heard of them, but since I have understood them to essentially be an accessory part, I don't know which ones are purported to be for my car.

Thank you VERY much for this;
I had not heard that.

I'll try to help with the Battery Cable questions.

I suspect the reason for all the p/n changes is connected to the fact that Delco introduced the Side Terminal Battery in 1969 but only for the aftermarket at first.

I remember this advance being much ballyhooed at the time since the side terminal design was going to be a sealed terminal and resist corrosion. Not sure if that proved to be the case.

For '71, GM was to install the new side terminal battery, according to this article, in 80% of production for '71.

Note, the Pontiac 455 GP and other 455 applications were also planned to get the new "maintenance free" Delco battery also featuring the new side terminal design.

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/147...es-for-gms-71s

I'm guessing that the side terminal battery quickly became the service battery of choice and the Side Terminal Battery Cable p/ns soon superseded the original Post Terminal (Spring Ring Type) Battery Cable p/ns.

I couldn't find a listing at GMPartsWiki for it, but I'm just guessing that p/n 8907535 p/ns was a Side Terminal style Cable. If you remember how these worked, they were a "bolt on" style. The bolt screwed into battery itself, no separate nut used. The bolt was captured within the cable end itself.

I'm not sure what style the 6289160 and 6296738 cables might be.

A listing from 1981 shows 6296738 discontinued, use 8909815. A '79 Chevy Truck MPC listing shows this as 43" center to center of the holes. Looks to be a more or less generic service replacement for early '60s trucks as the GROUND Cable with Terminal.

A search at GMPartsWiki shows that a ton of 297xxxx and 298xxxx p/ns were discontinued circa '73-'74 along with a ton of 628xxxx and 629xxxx p/ns at the same time.

I did not find 6289160 or 6296738 in that list of supersedures.

A 1970 or maybe 1971 MPC might list the OE Battery Cable p/ns for your '70.

If you can find the OE p/ns you might have some luck speaking to Lectric Limited. They apparently have original engineering drawings and can duplicate the wires/cables from them.

I spoke to them when I was chasing down the dual horn wire for my '64 GTO. As I recall, there was a revision that changed the length of the wire during production and I could decide how long I wanted them to make it (early or late length).

If you can find the p/ns they may be able to pull up the drawing and see what it shows and whether they can duplicate it.

/\ wow - thanks John!!

Again, I want to thank you for a wholly different perspective on this than I had previously.

The other info about introduction of side terminal batteries, and how this plays into it, is nothing I have come across before.

Another person, who seemed quite confrontational on facebook just this past week also lightly touched on this by talking about continually superceded part numbers.

I just found in my assembly manual the following:

positive V8:
L30/L65/L78: 8901092
L74/L67: 8901076

Negative V8:
all: 2982791

So that one pictured on the Lectric website as the negative cable is in fact the correct one!!?
And just like their site (and not my 1974 MPC suggests) there WAS two different positive cables!!

Wow!

Now to just figure out other stuff like correct/OE shocks, a correct oil pressure sender, and many other details of minutia that I am sure most people don't concern themselves with... but again, I have time on my side right now.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but regarding Delco spiral shocks,...they were junk from day one. If we could get 20K miles out of them that was terrific and about as good as could be expected. My one owner 45K '72 Esprit still had the originals. Looked and looked for a good spiral design but ended up going with modern Delco branded low pressure gas shocks and am very happy with the improved ride quality and smooth freeway performance.
So for over-restored trailer queens, spiral shocks are a must have. But for my fair weather drivers, at least having the correct branded replacements is plenty good enough.

On weatherstrips, I have bought many sets of true NOS W/S through the years and have often been disappointed. Very hard to install a W/S which has been folded or rolled up in a box or package for 30+ years! I've been able to make them work, but there will be wrinkles and kinks that will never "relax" out. Also have bought many brands of repro stuff as an experiment in brand quality and haven't been blown away with either softness or correctness of appearance.
So what do I do? For my cars that I want to be as close to factory as possible, I'll struggle with NOS GM. For the others, recently I have been using Metro Molded Products.

Yes, NOS doesn't mean mint and new condition. It can mean has sat on a dusty shelf long after the box got wet and fell apart or has been drying out and going hard for decades. But hard to know which you get either.

My theory is this....

Are you building a Pontiac Firebird or a Taiwan one?

No, original NOS GM/PMD parts are not perfect. GM wasn't in business to build show cars, they were in business to make money. No "perfect" car ever rolled off the assembly line and your high end judged car shows know this and will deduct points for over-restoration. I, for one, can spot repop potmetal pieces from across a show field.

As far as weatherstrips go, you will never beat NOS GM. But the best A/M come from Steele Rubber Products. I have dealt with Steele since it was called Lynn Steele and you dealt with Lynn and his wife.

Negative Cable


Positive Cable


:)

those are great!
What year was that MPC printed?
I'm guessing it's one of those "all model" books I occasionally come across, is that correct?

I'd say it's a 73/74 Parts & Accessories Catalog
(it's on jpgs)


:)

I quite like how those pages spell out the length and the top versus side mount as was mentioned by John V. earlier!

theres a guy here in Kansas City that restores spirals he is well known in the corvette world..as far as i know he is the only one, but i havent researched is..i buy stuuff from him occasionally, but i dont know or cant recommend his services..but he is well known

he is ancient...i saw him last year and tried to convince him to pass the info and technique on to someone (not me) before it was lost...he said his son has no interest in it..soooo..its probably going to die with him

Dan Patch - Owner - Dans Shocks.com | LinkedInwww.linkedin.com › dan-patch-639b48155
View Dan patch's profile on LinkedIn, the world's largest professional community. Dan has 2 jobs listed on their profile. See the complete ... Kansas City, MO.


Dan's Classics LLC in Shawnee, KS - (913) 268-5314 - Buzzfilewww.buzzfile.com › business › Dan!s-Classics-LLC-91...
Dan's Classics LLC is in the Antique and Classic Automobile Restoration ... Contact: Dan Patch. Title: Principal. Phone: (913) 268-5314. Website: Dan's Classics LLC is the only company located at 11935 W 72nd Ter, Shawnee, KS 66216 ... This location is in Johnson County and the Kansas City, MO-KS Metropolitan Area.

Incase anyone cares, I am compiling in this post the battery cable numbers (and description where available) changes in order - the top listing is the oldest, and last listing is the newest (from an MPC printed very late in 1974 - or roughly the mid way point in the 1975 model year).

I did notice I typo'ed the negative battery cable number, and both group numbers in my first post, but I assure you this time it's correct.

Negative cable (group 2.341):
1) #2982791 (OEM) (no description)
2) #6289160 (no description)
3) #8907353; 22" long; clamp
4) #8907353; 22" long; bolt type

/\ notice the last two numbers which were used from 1973 through to late 1974 were the same number, but appear to indicate different ends!?

Positive cable (group 2.342)
1a) #8901092; L30/L65/L78 (OEM) (no description)
1b) #8901076; L74/L67 (OEM) (no description)
2) #8909815; 2 wire - 48" long & 24" long (both #1 superseded by this part number)
3) #6296738 (no description; I am guessing by the date of this number that this is likely a cable with a bolt style end)
4) #8909815; 43" long (Added here because of John V's post; I will assume that this is a bolt style)

/\ it looks like the second and fourth are the same part number but with a different description. In light of the description difference, I feel it's worth repeating John's words:
I also just noted that while my November 1974 MPC shows #6296738 for 1970, it lists the #8909815 for 1971-1972 8cyl exc 455 with the following full description:
So we can clearly see that this part number was never not being used, and that it was sued for 1970, then not, then reinstated for 1970.
It appears as though that part number was used several times over with changes being made for the part being sold under that number!

I hope I'm not the only one to find this to be quite fun to figure out!