Hi all!
I am an auto shop teacher at a small Christian school in Oklahoma.
Since my students are sometimes caught "between jobs", I bought a 1969 Pontiac Lemans from Ebay for them to restore as both a good "busy work" project, and an object lesson in restoration in general (including our own!).
<P> The car was sadly misrepresented in the Ebay ad, as the seller mentioned rust in only two places, behind the rear window and a "hole" in the trunk. Well, the rust is everywhere, and the "hole" in the trunk includes the entire trunk! Please do not advise me to chew him out and demand repayment, as we have chosen to prove that restoration can take place regardless of how bad things look.
<P> Anyway, for the next year or two, I will be asking for your expertise in the area of restoring this car and "cloning" it into a showpiece Judge copy. We will then sell the car to raise funds for our school. We want to get the most bang for the buck that we can, without resorting to "half-way" methods and cheesy "cheats" (I.E., spraying tan interior pieces with Marhide to make them black). For instance, the car has a 350 two barrel engine. We will build an "original" Ram Air III 400. I am hoping you all can direct us to good deals on usable parts (not cracked dashes that were removed from other people's projects,rusty trim, bent bumpers, etc.) If anyone has a heart tp donate good usable parts, this is also welcome, and you will receive a tax deductable receipt for their value.But mostly I am hoping for good advice on the correct way to do this project. We will begin by tearing the entire car down to the last bolt and screw, and then sand blast the body (I hope there is still a car left afterward!). Anyway, thanks in advance fopr your insights and recommendations.
Fred

P.S.- If you want proof that this is a school project and not some greedy dog wanting freebies you can call Oklahoma Academy at (405) 454-6211, or the schoolauto shop at (405)454-0709 and ask for Mr. Volz. Thanks

Hi all!
I am an auto shop teacher at a small Christian school in Oklahoma.
Since my students are sometimes caught "between jobs", I bought a 1969 Pontiac Lemans from Ebay for them to restore as both a good "busy work" project, and an object lesson in restoration in general (including our own!).
<P> The car was sadly misrepresented in the Ebay ad, as the seller mentioned rust in only two places, behind the rear window and a "hole" in the trunk. Well, the rust is everywhere, and the "hole" in the trunk includes the entire trunk! Please do not advise me to chew him out and demand repayment, as we have chosen to prove that restoration can take place regardless of how bad things look.
<P> Anyway, for the next year or two, I will be asking for your expertise in the area of restoring this car and "cloning" it into a showpiece Judge copy. We will then sell the car to raise funds for our school. We want to get the most bang for the buck that we can, without resorting to "half-way" methods and cheesy "cheats" (I.E., spraying tan interior pieces with Marhide to make them black). For instance, the car has a 350 two barrel engine. We will build an "original" Ram Air III 400. I am hoping you all can direct us to good deals on usable parts (not cracked dashes that were removed from other people's projects,rusty trim, bent bumpers, etc.) If anyone has a heart tp donate good usable parts, this is also welcome, and you will receive a tax deductable receipt for their value.But mostly I am hoping for good advice on the correct way to do this project. We will begin by tearing the entire car down to the last bolt and screw, and then sand blast the body (I hope there is still a car left afterward!). Anyway, thanks in advance fopr your insights and recommendations.
Fred

P.S.- If you want proof that this is a school project and not some greedy dog wanting freebies you can call Oklahoma Academy at (405) 454-6211, or the schoolauto shop at (405)454-0709 and ask for Mr. Volz. Thanks

Hats off to you for teaching the kids to restify a Pontiac! You've come to the right place to get answers to almost any question you can think up regarding Pontiacs.

Keep an eye on the "Parts for Sale" section of this site for some great deals on used stuff.

If you find yourself needing new/repro parts you'll want to stick to this boards host, Performance Years, or Ames Performance. These two vendors are way ahead of the other "multi make" parts vendors in terms of price and customer service.

You'll have to keep us informed as the project progresses. Don't forget to include pics! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

Yep photos would help. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

I have enjoyed following these types of student projects, like the one Ames supports.

I would suggest starting with a GTO, not a Lemans. It should be one with a desirable color combination, drivetrain, and options. Then bring it back to original appearance, with some performance goodies here and there. It does not have to be a Judge, just a desirable GTO.

My goals would be:

To have a car the students will be most enthusiastic, and proud of.

To build a car sponsors, collectors, and people in the hobby, will be most intersted in following the progress, and contributing parts to.

To end up with a car that is going to bring top dollar for the school when you are done.

Restoring a real GTO, to original condition, will accomplish these things, much better than a clone.

I hope you up for suggestions. Just my thoughts.

Another idea is to contact someone within all of the major reproduction companies (maybe start with PY, our host) and ask for specific parts for donations....couldn't hurt.

They may have some scratch and dents that would be an easy fix for you and a nice tax write off for them...

SlowGTO,
Thanks for your input. I agree with you that a real GTO would have been better for investment purposes. But there are two problems.


1- A real GTO, even in project condition, is unaffordable in one lump sum for our small school. This car was bought for $850. It is a factory air car, with a floor shift, bucket seats, etc.

The executive comittee would never had approved the 3 or 4 thousand for a GTO of equal condition, plus the cost of transporting such a car to Oklahoma City.This car was available within two hours of here. Yes, it is a second rate idea, but it's all we can do right now.

2- The point of the project is the ability to restore damaged lost causes to a pre-fallen state. Money, though a high dollar sale would benefit us greatly, is not the main point of the project. We hope to invest around ten grand in parts and materials (labor is free) and get maybe fifteen from the deal.

1st report,

We pulled the Lemans into the shop today and the boys had a ball removing the hood, trunk, all the chrome, and the seats. They are very excited. The bad news is that the channel around the back window is non-existant (It is a vinyl top model). The good news is that it looks like the floor boards are in decent shape.

Does anyone make a rear window channel for this car? Perhaps the entire piece that goes from the back window to the trunk?

Also, should we keep the vinyl top or remove the chrome and fill the holes? It seems a non-vinyl car is more desirable than one with the top. On some cars, such as AMCs, vinyl tops were purposely put on cars that had a bad transition joint from q-panel to top. The vinyl hid this flaw. Is it the same on the Pontiacs as well?

Thanks again!

Fred,

Good luck with the project! Should be fun and I'm sure the kids will learn a lot while they enjoy seeing their accomplishments.

No, the vinyl top on the '69 LeMans does not cover any blemishes. I had one on my first Custom S (LeMans) and removed it, sanded and painted over it. Looked better to me! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif

The "rear window channel" is a common rust area for this body style. Here's what happens:

1) Water runs down the concave rear window and pools on the molding at the base of the window under the stainless trim. 2) This causes rust under the vinyl top and/or on the "deck filler panel" (the actual name for this piece). Water then continues its journey through the opening between the filler panel and the deck lid. 3) If the weather stripping is in bad shape inside the deck lid, the water then sits on the floor of the trunk and eventually rusts through it as well. Seems you have all three of problems described above! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif

The deck lid filler panel is available for $110 though Goodmark Industries. (Couldn't find it at PY or Ames). It will need to be welded in. Besides PY.Com and Ames, Goodmark has many GM restoration parts:

Goodmark Pontiac Parts

Performance Years

Ames Performance Engineering

Be aware that these restoration parts do not always fit as well as the original parts. So, when possible, restoring with the original body panels or finding used/OEM/junk yard replacement parts in fairly good shape is the better way to go as the replacement parts will take just as long, if not longer, to trim, fit and align with 1the body seams, etc.

Hope this helps...

Seee-ya! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif

Jim.

I feel I must make my views on this subject clear, even though I will no doubt be on the receiving end of a great deal of criticism.

You are clearly concerned that the car was "sadly misrepresented" when you bought it. Why are you even considering cloning it then? This, in my opinion, makes you worse than the party you purchased the car from. Even if you do make your future buyer aware that the car is not a real Judge, what is to stop a subsequent buyer from being defrauded for a great deal more than the $850 you paid? There are already too many clones in circulation, and it is wholly unacceptable for you to be producing another one! You should not justify doing this by the fact that it is raising money for your school. Sure, restore the car and have a great time doing it, but bring it back as a LeMans, just as it was originally meant to be. You will be giving your students entirely the wrong message if you proceed with this ill-advised cloning project.

Pod,
Thanks for your input and concern. First I would like to say that I would in no way EVER try to pass off a clone as the real thing. Two years ago I built a 1978 AMC "Machine", that is, a Concord with a built 360, with 1969 Rebel Machine trim and paint job. It utrned out that I actually ruined a rare car in doing this (my ignorance) in that my Concord was one of almost none that came with AMX options including the V8, interior, "Go-pak", factory mags, etc. In other words, it was a base model coupe that built with all the AMX options, all numbers matching and only 30,000 original miles. Ooops!,I ruined a rare car,dropping its value considerably.But I was honest about the whole thing... (That and the car was soooo cool, and fast, when it was finished!)

Second, I would also tell any prospective buyer everything that was done to the car, including the rust repair. We currently sell our student's projects every week. They are usually donated cars , mainly from the early nineties, that we would repair and resell.For instance,we would replace the engine with a rebuilt and then resell at Kelley Private party value. We disclose every flaw and repair in the car to every prospective buyer. Sometimes the customer does not buy the car based on this information, but some buy because of it.
Our cars also come with a 6 month warranty.

Please do not equate us (I speak for others as well) with a man who put an ad on ebay where he played up the car, minimized it's rust issues, and then sold it with a "clear conscience". We could NEVER do that.


AS for there being too many clones. You may be right. If I owned a #s matching Judge that I was trying to sell for $50,000 I might think a clone like mine that sold for $15,000 is one car too many. That is not to say that is the situation, but is it possible? Or is it that if people see too many "Judges" the value of all would decrease?

If we were to restore it back to the box stock Lemans it would cost far more in parts than we could ever get from the car. It would be a losing proposition financially. Besides, the kids would not be excited to build a dark green Lemans with avacado interior and a vinyl top.They want to see the transformation from this ugly hulk to a shiny Carousel Red (maybe)car with stripes.

Hello teacher welcome to the board. I'm from Carney and my wife is from Luther. We'er currently living outside of D.C.. There is 69 lemans sitting in a junk yard South of Stillwater on the west side of HWY 177 . It has disc brakes and some other parts you might be able to salvage. I kind of agree with POD not the fraud part but there are to many clones and not enough nice Lemans out there. It is your car though do with it as you wish.

I have some first pics of the car, but have no idea how to post them. Couls someone out there tell me how? They are on a CD.

Teacher, thanks for your response. I was careful to ask if a subsequent buyer might be deceived. NOT by your goodself, but by somebody who may own the car (perhaps some years) after you have sold it. I certainly never intended to question your integrity!

As far as the number of "Judges" vs their values; is it not right that a truly genuine rare car IS worth more, and should not be artificially devalued by clones which may, or may not be easy to identify as such?

I remain of the opinion that you are totally wrong to create this clone whether or not it is "exciting" for the kids to build or "profitable" for the school. As I said before, this will give them entirely the wrong message as to what is, and what is not acceptable when restoring classic cars.

Teacher. Clone that Lemans as you wish! I am doing the same. I would rather spend a few thousand and have a clone Judge than spend $50,000 for a real judge that I would be afraid to drive for fear of hurting the value. With a clone you can also update to modern suspension and drive train and there is no value loss.
Good luck finding all the gto parts! Here is my email address pontiacmaniac@suscom.net. If you want, send me your needs and I will do what I can to hook you up with parts. I have a few friends also into 69's.

Thanks, We just pulled the windshield this morning, and to our horror, the whole cowl is a big rust hole, including the front of the dash board. Is this repairable? Are there parts for this? I had to admit to the boys that perhaps there ARE some things that are unfixable, that truly are a lost cause.I hope this is not the case, and I ams till holding out hope.

Dreamingmuscle, do you remember the name of the salvage yard?

PontiacManiac,We need EVERYTHING you can imagine, and then some. The top of the car seems solid, the doors seem fairly good, the fron fenders have rust only in the lower corners,the frame SEEMS okay (emphasis on seems), the axles appear to be okay, the window regulators work. The wiring looks untampered with (this is a one-owner car!), the AC is intact.We are getting a 12 bolt rear donated to us.Thanks for the offer. We'll need all the help we can get.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Teacher, Teacher!:

Dreamingmuscle, do you remember the name of the salvage yard? [QUOTE]

Huff's I believe I pretty sure it starts with a H Though. The car sets right off the highway you can't miss it if your head is up. Just come up 177 from 66 or from 33 if you want to come off I 35 It's on the left side about 3-5 miles south of Stillwater. It's a four door but most of the parts should transfer.

Glen

You need to get a hold of Wyslyp (SP) he can be found in the body section. He has also taking on a impossible project. He has done some great work and will be willing to share pictures of his progress. Also keep your eyes open for a better starting point. Oklahoma is full of them.

Glen

Given the condition of what you are starting with, I think you would be better off getting another car as a doner or as a donee, whichever is better.

As far as a making it a judge clone, I think that you could meet your end goal of a finished car cheaper as a LeMans than a goat or judge clone. Plus I think that a nicely done LeMans would stand out in a crowd.

Thank you so much for your insights. Yes, we need a better starting point. But I think I'm going to have to part out the one we have. It has date coded "soft ray" windows in very good condition. The engine and tranny are date coded and #s match. The back seat is good. It has the original AM radio (still don't know if it works)The chrome is all very good, including those rocker extensions behind the rear wheels.Three of the four original wheel covers are okay. I am hoping the maybe we can sell enough parts to get our money back out and find a better "starting point". Oklahoma may be full of them, but no offense to us Okies, it is also full of greedy people who want more than what something is worth, and will sit until they get it...or until the rig rusts into the ground.

T T,

If you do part 'er out (which in this case I think is a good idea given all the rust), I'd be interested in the rocker extensions behind the rear wheels and perhaps a few other odds and ends. Feel free to e-mail me at the address below...

Thanks! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif

Jim.