Paint shop refuses!
 

My paint and body guy is old school says he wants to put filler directly to metal.
I told him I thought it should go over the epoxy.
He said he has never put it over epoxy. And insists his way or he won't guarantee anything.

Should I walk and find another shop?

You either have to believe in your guy or find another one. You can't try to change him.

There are two camps in the epoxy debate. You've probably seen it discussed here before so I won't go into the why vs. why not.

While you're talking with him about the process, there are other questions you should probably ask about his steps and products. Do some research regarding the products he plans to use. You may learn some things that make your decision easier.

Does he use epoxy primer at all? Over bare metal or over filler? If not, exactly what product does he shoot over bare metal?
Which primers and paints will he use from start to finish, including clear? Is he certified with a particular paint line? Will his paint supplier warranty the product? Does the paint product information/guideline address the use of epoxy primer?
When he block sands his primed bodywork, does he wet sand or dry sand? Block sanding can expose metal and filler again. Filler is talc suspended in polyester resin. Talc absorbs moisture like a sponge, and in my opinion is the reason moisture often gets to the metal surface below the filler that might be exposed to water during blocking. The resulting failure is obvious years later.

At my shop we use epoxy primer before any body filler is used, over the sanded filler, and on panels prior to applying any high build primers. It means more materials cost and longer wait times, something your guy might not be willing to sacrifice.

Roy: I've done it both ways and I really have no preference.

Here is the straight of it....suppose he sprays epoxy on the repair site or all over for that matter. He then lays on a coat of polyester filler and will sand the filler to repair the dent or whatever. I always have to add another coat of filler (nobody gets it perfect with the first coat). I doubt any bodyman is going to spray more epoxy before the second coat of filler so it goes on over bare metal. I sometimes have to add body filler 3 or 4 times, sanding between each to get the repair where I want it.

Point is, even after the repair site (filler) gets its' final sanding you're going to end up with some filler directly over bare metal. Is that so bad??...not in my estimation as long as the car doesn't sit for weeks/months before the final body work gets done and the filler receives a fresh shot of epoxy..

I like epoxy, but it's not practical to shoot it before every application of filler and it always takes more that one coat of filler to get it "just right".

Just my $.02..

400 4 speed......in all your years..have you Evah had someone come into your shop and ask you what paint line you use and your procedure to refinish their car.....and they request another product ? Like the Jerky boys say "were off to a bad start already " ... lol

I actually have, and more than one time. People who have educated themselves about the process like to know that epoxy primer is being used, and why. I use all PPG paint products exclusively and no one has asked me to use a different system. PPG has always offered good support, so I have no interest in trying other brands, even if requested.
Whenever I talk with a prospective customer who does not ask, I explain the steps to them. Then I take them to the mixing room and show them shelves with customer names on the paint and primer materials they are billed for.

He didn't plan on using epoxy at all until I requested that he did. I told Him I would supply the epoxy (SPI). He agreed then when I asked about his process and questioned the direct to metal filler he said he never put it on top of epoxy. He also agreed to use SPI universal clear which he said he has never used.

I had my body done in 1981.....bare metal, metal etch, body work, primer then paint & clear........had a scratch & shoot in around 1992-93........I have 1 tiny bubble now!
Ground off all the vinyl top trim studs. That is the only spot one side that's it.

If he has been around awhile he knows what he is doing so let him do it his way. Most of the old cars you see had the bondo applied to bare metal.

So he won't put filler over the epoxy sealer and guarantee... but he will use epoxy sealer and clear from a brand he doesn't know and guarantee? Most reputable painters I know wouldn't switch any part of their proven "process" and guarantee it.

And all the new ones that need repair....have filler over bare metal. There ain't no body shop within 50 miles of me that uses epoxy for every day collision work.Some self etching primer over the repair and bare steel/ alu...then 2k primer over it ....been working for decades.

I agree, I did it that way for 28 years in collision shops, but used epoxy at my home shop. I've used it since 1991 on restoration jobs. That's a good example of one of the differences between collision work and restoration work.

I personally side with the old school camp and put filler on bare metal. The edges I found feather much better. Maybe the epoxy has changed adheres better but once you find a system that works for you, you don't wast money trying to experiment.

When I painted my car back in 96 I put filler over bare metal & used epoxy & then both of the filler primers & sealers on over that. The car looks good today & thats the way I was told by several body men before I tackled the car myself. I talked with at least 6 different body men & all said filler over bare metal , none said the other way.

Back in 1981 I used some Ditzler epoxy primer on a '56 Chevy ... if I remember ...it was DP 40... i wonder if they still make it...lol

Thanks for the replies! I know getting a car painted shouldn't be so problematic. But I have a limited budget and can only do this once and that's why I'm asking questions. I have read a ton but in the end real world experience advice helps.

Thanks again

The mixing of body filler and it's hardener creates a reaction that results in the creation of heat. That heat against cooler metal then creates condensation at that level and since our cars are simply cold rolled steel without any galvanization, you'll get corrosion. By first applying epoxy on the steel before the application of filler, you'll have a water tight layer on which to apply filler. After using this process for over 30 years, I can tell you, it works!

i am in process of doing my 68 lemans. i tried the epoxy prime than body filler - it just felt wrong to put filler on primer- like kissing ur sister wrong. i guess we will see how it goes - i did like the epoxy primer - i am using ppg stuff and evercoat ultra something it was the newest stuff they had - i really did like the filler, best ive ever used. i always light etch then filler then primer or primer sealer depending on how long it will b in primer and never had an issue and im not even a pro with good shop conditions

After again talking to my painter today he said he never used spi universal clear and he uses concept 2021 clear. He will use the spi but would prefer to use what he is familiar with.

Any comparisons or preferences between the 2 clears?

I would say you find a different shop, one that will do it your way. I think your guy is right but you're giving so much grief trying to tell him how to paint a car it's time for you to move on.
BTW, concept 2021 is an excellent product.