200R4 problems
 

I took my GTO for a ride yesterday and ended up towing it home. :mad: it has a mild 455 and a 200r4 that was supposed to handle 500 HP. it has about 500 miles on it even though it was done 4 years ago. i was cruising about 55-60 mph and hit the gas pretty hard, there was a loud bang and it felt like the tranny went into neutral. no leaks, no other noise it just doesn't move. any ideas?
thanks Bryan

intermediate drum shaft sheared off
 

It's most likely the intermediate shaft. I had exactly the same thing happen 20 years ago in my 200-4R behind a 428. Fortunately, the shaft broke cleanly straight across at the back of the splines so didn't damage anything else. I was in the fast lane, stepped on it to pass a slowpoke and bam! had neutral. Coasted 4 lanes over to the shoulder.

Since then, I no longer do that WOT kickdown maneuver. I've memorized roughly where redline is in each gear and if I have the need to do max acceleration, I manually downshift 1st before stepping on it.

https://www.cpttransmission.com/2004...diate_Drum.htm

I had mine built locally in Dripping Springs with CPT parts. I've been beating the **** out of it for about 3 years with slicks at the track, doing road rallys, running 160mph on the highway and all it has been is perfect.

A stock 200 4R can't live long behind a well built 455. Hell, the 4L60s GM put behind the 1st generation LS1s don't live long either.
400+ foot pounds of torque breaks a lot of stock parts.

200 r4
 

A stock 200 4R can't live long behind a well built 455. Hell, the 4L60s GM put behind the 1st generation LS1s don't live long either.
400+ foot pounds of torque breaks a lot of stock parts.

i didnt think it was stock , although i dont really know what was done to it. the guy who rebuilt it owns a local shop and does a lot of hod rods and race cars. he was pretty confidant it would hold up. after doing a search and seeing how much you have in parts it must be closer to stock than i thought. it cost me 1100.00 with a converter.

Hmmm, i look forward to doing that good ole Passing Gear Kick-down with WOT. TH400 delivers the goods. Dard certain the 4L80 is equal to the task.

Never opened a 200M, 200r4, 700r4 so i justa donta know. 4r70w looks capable!

If a "Mainshaft" snapped then the metal sizing just isnt in the basic design. huh

$1100 with a converter, it was pretty much stock.

To find a reliable 200 your going to be in the $2500 area without a converter.

Lonnie Diers, of Extreme Automatics, has a stage 1 (500 HP) for $2200 and a stage 2 (750 HP)for $2700. Diers is one of the top 200r4 builders in the country, so he would know what it takes to keep one together.

A 200r4 wouldn't be my first consideration, but that's an entirely different topic.

If you're going to stay with the 200r4 you should go to one of the best in the industry, there are probably 10 people in the US that can build a reliable 200. You've already paid your $1100 admission fee.

Why not actually talk to some of the 200 builder pros, ask what they think? Jake and CK Performance, Chris, will both not recommend a 200 anymore, there are better alternatives. Also, it's too difficult to find good 200 cores anymore.

I'm not going to get into the whole 200 debate, but my personal opinion is they don't belong behind a performance engine, and a 455 can make 500 ft lbs without even trying. Most people that have them behind 455s lasting aren't making as much power as they think they are.


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200 r4
 

i guess i thought since im not a drag racer and i built my car to be a driver/cruiser it would be ok. just cant keep my foot out of it all the time! ill see what the guy who built it has to say. maybe back to the turbo 400. too bad i gave the original trans from the car to a friend to have rebuilt for his tempest conv.

A TH400 with 3.08s is not a bad combo. But it's still not like OD.

These days, even TH400s are not that cheap to do 'right', if you can squeeze more cash, and get OD, that would be optimum. If you want to be SURE you won't have any problems with an OD, the only choice is a 4L80e. A 4L80e in just about stock form is good to like 750+ ft lbs. Ask any of the builders that do both 200s AND 4L80e, they will tell you the same.

The problem with getting advice from a builder who purely does 200s is, they will always advise you to get a 200, even if it's not the best option.

Do a cost analysis, side by side, and see what it would truly cost to do whatever transmissions that are available, and then see what you come up with. See what the differences are, and cost, and see if it makes sense to pursue whatever path.

A good TH400 with a good converter these days are close to $2k, if not more. (depending on the converter). The cost of trans alone between a TH400 and a 4L80e is about the same.

Obviously, the added costs of doing a 4L80e is the controller, crossmember or crossmember mods, shifter mod, driveshaft, and speedo mods. The adapter is very inexpensive (@$65). That is the true difference between doing a TH400 and a 4L80e.

Think it thru logically, and do your own homework.

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I would stay with an O.D. just for the "less wear & tear" factor on the engine. I'm sure your 55+ cruising RPM's were in the mid to low 2000's vs. 3500+ RPM without O.D. Look into a 4L80. You could get away with a stock or mild build and not have to drive your car as if you were hauling a trunk full of eggs.

200r4
 

i was really looking forward to the OD. i had 3:23's put in the rear. i will look into the newer trans. i was just kind of caught up in the no adapter plate thing.

The tranny with the least expense for you would be the 700R4/4L60. Would could get away with pretty much everything you already have other than the adaptor plate and driveshaft shortening. The only thing about the 700R4/4L60 is that some people don't like the short 1-2 shift. I like it but some don't. That can be cured with a 1-2 gear swap but now you are talking more money and now you may want to weigh the cost with a 4L80e.

There are probably thousands of performance cars reliably running the $52 adapter plates to adapt 4 of the 6 trans bolts of a chevy bell pattern to a BOP engine. It's not the factor to base your decision on, because it's not going to affect the reliability of the install one bit.

The 2 bottom bolts of the chevy pattern are in the same position as the BOP bolts are, and screw directly into the block on either application. Leaving the upper 4 bolts to be adapted by use of the plate. There is absolutely no reason to sidestep the simple conversion.

Since the guy that built your transmission is probably a chevy fan, he probably isn't used to the torque that a 455 Pontiac produces. The transmission he built for you would've probably held up for years behind most street SBCs, even though most SBC owners all have 600HP at the flywheel, just ask them......LOL :D

I was born in, and lived in Erie for 47 years, I owned my own garage, and worked for independent garages as well as many of the GM dealerships. The people in Erie can make a penny into a dime just by squeezing it. If you're going to have reliable OD behind a 455, you're going to have to decide which way you're going to go, and pay the price.

I really don't want to get into the back and forth between which transmission is a better choice, but the 4L80E came in chevy and GMC trucks up to 15,000 lbs GVW, with stock internals, behind turbo diesels, and BB engines up to 8.1 liters. Essentially a T400, with factory designed OD, electronically controlled. That would be my choice, you'll never have to worry about hitting the gas pedal, and ending up sitting on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck. It's more expensive to do this swap initially, but it will save money and time over the years.

Having also worked as a maintenance mechanic during my time turning wrenches, we had this saying. "Figure out how strong it needs to be, then make it 3 times stronger, it'll be just right." ;)

:focus:

Sorry yours was not built by anyone who has a clue about the 2004R.
Most people don't live within a few hundred miles of someone who can build a 2004R correctly for power.

A local 455 owner here purchased CK's great book and built his own, he also did a ton of research from the top 200 builders (lots but not everything is in the CK book).
https://www.ckperformance.com/View/G...CHNICAL-MANUAL

Here is an excellent read about 2004R specific components and how strong they are. Jake had real knowledge on them.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&postcount=29

I hear you PC, and was going down that road several years ago, and both Jake and Chris would not endorse a 200 for my car. Chris went thru one of the 200s I believe and told me there's nothing more he can do except start swapping cases. Sometimes there are issues with cases that you can't find, nothing you can do about it.

One issue with the 200s once you start building for max power is there's specific parts that are only made by a couple folks, and are not cheap. A max-effort build can peak $6k+, and there's still no guarantee. And to top that off, there's no WAY you can match the tuning or power capabilities of a 4L80e. For half the price. So where's the return on taking the 'chance'?

The drivability benefits of a computer controlled trans compared to a non-computerized one is just no match. You can tune a computerized trans to act like a daily driver under X throttle, RPM, load (map), etc, you just can't do that as well with a non. Period.

200 'users' are so proud that they can do a full-throttle high-rpm lockup, and that is cake with a 4L80e. And the ones that brag about that are the ones that are going through their' units ever year, or at least every-other year. People talk about the 'guys that do it' on YB, drag racers, but they don't mention how often they go through them. Yeah. Ask. See what they say.

Do it right, do it once. Spend a touch more than you 'have' to, and you will save it in the long run.

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OK, I cleaned up a bunch of posts in this discussion. Please keep any additional posts constructive and on topic, and not argumentative.

I already eluded to that in an earlier post regarding the shortfalls of a 200 but that particular post for some reason is no longer here.

Everything is a compromise and there ain't no magic bullet here. OP is talking street usage, so let's compare what's available to our hobby:

700/4L60's have a ridiculously low 3.06 1st gear, such that decent gears (3.23+) just gives you uncontrollable wheelspin. Also require mods to shift into 4th at WOT unless you score a B4C or Vette VB or mod what you have. And internal mods to handle power. And need adapter plate (no biggie). Nice trans if all you want to do is burnouts.

200's aren't much better with a 2.75 1st, but it is in the right direction. The internals are really spindly and you wonder how the input/intermediate shafts can survive 1100+ ft-lbs of torque (450 lb-ft engine x 2.5 converter multiplication). Obviously, they oftentimes don't, OP and me included. But they're relatively light weight and bolt into anything without mods. And if you know what you're doing will work well with fairly high HP.

4L80E's are $$ and require a brain. And heavy! And require a BFH to make fit into early A-bodies. And a custom crossmember if you have a convertible or weld new tabs on the frame.

6L90E's would be great if they didn't require surgery to make fit our ancient cars. But they're not light either. Stock they'll handle 600+ ft-lbs, or more than a 4L80E without mods.

Seems to me if you don't want to spend $$$$, best compromise is a T-400 with 2.56 gears to be able to drive on the highway without fear of getting rear-ended. All you give up is a good launch. I had a '68 Firebird 400 with exactly that combo and it was nice to drive on the street.


I've had a 200-4R in my '66 GTO with a 6600 rpm, 550-ish hp 428 and 3.73 gears for the past 25 years and runs mid-11's at 4100 lbs on sticky tires. It took lots of tuning and mods to make it survive and broke a few parts along the way. Mandatory is to have an '84-up GN VB, and set up the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts to not be too firm and not too soft; it's a balancing act so as not to shock-load the trans too much but also not burn the clutches too quickly. I typically replace the 2nd gear band and 3rd clutch pack every 5000 miles or so and consider that as normal maintenance.

If you don't do a PERFECT job of setting up the TV cable, you'll burn up the trans. If you have it shift too firmly, it will break parts.

If you're paying someone else to build these trannies for you, this is not the unit for you. Learn how to build one yourself and learn how to respect that it's living on borrowed time behind a 455. If you have the patience to manually downshift before you stand on it WOT on the highway, it will be fine.

I've set up a good number of 700-R4/4L60's for customers, a few of them are members of this Forum. One in particular was done over 20 years ago for a 1969 GTO with a pretty stout 400 in it. Never the first glitch anyplace and coincidentally he called me recently for advice on another topic and said he absolutely loves the trans. We talked a bit about the "low" first gear deal, said it's not noticed nor is the slightly bigger gear spread from 1st to 2nd some folks mention on that topic. While on the topic I only do "non-LU" for retrofitting and use custom built torque converters for them with very efficient characteristics for "normal" driving but still have excellent torque multiplication and decent flash stall speeds. Another "myth" associated with using OD's and non-LU is smoking the trans because of converter slippage. That statement is absolute and utter NONSENSE like many other regurgitated issues with many parts we continue to see on the Forums, mostly from folks with little to no experience at all with them.

I have two customers with big block Chevelle's using 700-R4's, one is behind a 496 making well over 500hp and 600tq and no issues. He runs 3.73's and I asked him once about the extra-low 1st gear and 1-2 gear spread. He said that folks bellyaching about that chit need to keep their day-jobs.....his Chevelle blasts off low 11 second runs in full street trim and no shortcomings anyplace on the launch or thru the gears that could be noticed while you are pinned against the seat and all the blood running out of your face!.....LOL......Cliff

Sounds to me like the pump rotor broke. Do you know if it had the billet 10 vane pump rotor installed?