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Mystery of the self destructing water pump...
I finally got around to installing the new IA engine in my '67 Bird a week or two ago and it fired right up with Edelbrock ProFlo 4 Direct Port system. :D
I did my break in and have made several shake down runs since then, chasing down minor leaks & what-not, and have maybe 6-7 miles on the engine. Today, with all of the little things fixed, I made what I had hoped to be, my last test run. I got to the end of my road (about 1 mile) and turned onto the highway. I gave it 1/4 to 1/2 throttle and run it up to about 3800 when I heard a bang and pulled into a neighbors driveway. (The engine was still running, but power steering was gone) This is what I found: https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...zTrR45q-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...wnHMMJ2-X3.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...cfrmPVB-X3.jpg This is the first time that I've ever seen a water pump self destruct! |
Wow!
Did it take the rad out with it also ? |
Never had that happen. In my cars highest I've revved in a 421 or 455 has been 6500.Hmm. Curious is that a new pump? China? Bad casting?
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Water pumps fail like that--usually--because the fan is out-of-balance. Loose or missing blade, cracked blade with a piece missing, that sort of thing. Note that the fan blade "closest" to the camera has a piece missing, and a dark area around the missing chip--possible evidence of a long-term corrosion failure??? Or maybe the chip broke off during the calamity, and whatever broke it (fan shroud?) cleaned the dust off that part of the blade. I can't tell for sure.
Won't be a problem for you. That fan is DONE, and I bet it took the radiator and fan clutch with it in addition to the pump and belt. You didn't do that water pump any favors by installing that fan clutch. Perhaps I'm deceived by the photo, but it looks to me like that's a plain ol' ordinary passenger-car fan coupled to a bigass heavy-duty or severe-duty clutch. The experts--the folks who make the fan clutches, specifically do not recommend using a "Heavy Duty" or "Severe Duty" clutch with low-pitch passenger-car fans, but heaps of folks think they know better. There is not enough slippage when "disengaged", and locked-up really tight when engaged--leads to overspeeding of the fan blades. If I'm correct, the pulley ratio between crank and water pump pulleys would also be important--is the fan overdriven, or underdriven compared to the crank RPM? And...am I seeing this right? The fan clutch is spaced another ~1/2 inch farther forward with a spacer in front of the pulley? Even more leverage on the water pump casting if the fan doesn't spin true and balanced. |
Wow, too bad about the mess. So the Serpentine grips pretty good huh. Wonderin if the Mech Fan got locked-up.
I busted an iron pump much closer to the neck, with a 2-3 upshift at highway speed, longk ago. |
"Wow!
Did it take the rad out with it also ? " Yep. Guess I'll be giving Cold Case a call next week. "Curious is that a new pump? China? Bad casting?" That was a brand new pump that came with the CVF Racing all inclusive serpentine system. "Note that the fan blade "closest" to the camera has a piece missing, and a dark area around the missing chip--possible evidence of a long-term corrosion failure???" The fan was in good shape and not out of balance (that I could tell). I'll have to look at it closer tomorrow, but the damage must have been from it hitting something. "Perhaps I'm deceived by the photo, but it looks to me like that's a plain ol' ordinary passenger-car fan coupled to a bigass heavy-duty or severe-duty clutch." The fan has enough pitch for the clutch (according to Hayden) and has been great for keeping the car cooled on previous engines. I tried a lower pitch fan once and the car sounded like a Cessna going down the road. LOL "And...am I seeing this right? The fan clutch is spaced another ~1/2 inch farther forward with a spacer in front of the pulley?" In order to use a mechanical fan with the CVF serpentine, I had to order their "spacer" and then I needed another 1/2" spacer in order to get the fan to clear the belt tensioner. A flex fan needed a 3" spacer in order to clear the tensioner. "Wonderin if the Mech Fan got locked-up." First thing I checked. It still spins freely. ======================================= Before anyone says "electric fan", I started out with a 16" Spal 2024 cfm fan, mounted on a shroud, and it couldn't keep the engine cool; even with the help of a 12" Spal pusher fan. I do have a dual fan/shroud setup with a couple of Spal 11" extreme duty fans, but the motors would have hit the pulleys. I used this setup on a previous engine and it worked "okay" most of the time, but would still let the engine get hot (215*-240*) in heavy traffic or long runs. I've spent hundreds of hours (and thousands of dollars) trying to keep previous engines in this car cool and the ONLY thing that has worked consistently has been this big ass, 7 blade, fan on a severe duty clutch. I was hoping that the aluminum block would be easier to keep cool, but it's not looking like it will be... |
I can’t tell by your photos, but if that cracked open area of the casting is not as thick as the support ribs that extend out to the snout then I don’t really see how that pump could not have failed at some point on you.
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Just my thoughts. So sorry that happened to you. I agree with Schurkey. That is a big ass fan to install on a Aluminum water pump. I ran a Flex fan on a Pontiac Cast iron water pump to 7000rpm with no issues. The flex fan is much lighter. They are also rated to 10K rpm. I also run a 1/2 solid spacer, but I installed it under the pulley. I'm not a fan of these after market water pumps. I still think the best water pump is the cast iron impeller one.
I've since gone with the electric water pump and fans and 160 * thermostat. https://flex-a-lite.com/catalogsearc...&rpm_rating=95 |
WAG-thought; think about if the Tensioner is on the wrongk side of the water pump pulley. Or if not enough tension and caused the tensioner to dance. Could be shocking.
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Some of these aftermarket fans and clutches come with a bushing to center it onto the water pump. Is it possible that’s missing? Also, I’m personally not a fan of those severe duty clutches. They weigh a ton compared to the regular HD clutches and will magnify any out of balance issues.
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Its possible that small spacer doesnt have the centering protrusion on it
its hard to see a cross section on that water pump casting but it does look a bit thin, one consideration is if its cast with the same thickness of a cast iron part that would be to thin in of itself, just not the same material strength |
Man sorry to hear. With that engine and a serpentine setup (not caring to look or appear stock) I would get a dual electric Spal brushless fan setup (3600+cfm) on a Wizard Cooling or PWR built radiator. Your best bet in my opinion.
https://wizardcooling.com/i-30502427...del%3DFIREBIRD |
I have used these fans on race cars as well as street driven Pontiacs, and although they have no clutch, and are direct drive they have kept all my cars that I've used them on, cool. Not only do they move a lot of air, they are made of a nylon reinfoced composite material, and are lightweight (under 1 Lb.). You'll not have all that weight hanging out on the end of the shaft.
https://i.ibb.co/YNBKyn8/flx-418-jy-xl.jpg The pitch of the fan is almost 90 degrees and they are designed to keep RVs cool. One other thing is the composite is much less damaging in case the fan blades come in contact with the radiator, (important in short track dirt racing). I started using this style fan on the reccomendation of my radiator shop guy back in the late 70s, and have always had great luck with them. Flex a lite, as well as All Star sell them, and they're under $50. Your car, and your decision, just thought I'd mention a product I've had good luck with for nearly 50 years. I had one similar experience on a reman water pump where the bearing shattered and the shaft broke on a newly installed pump, also ruined the radiator. Of course it wasn't a customer car, it was my own wrecker. The company did take care of the damages in my case. |
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Were there any markings on the pump, to possibly identify???
Reason I ask back in the 90's when I sold auto parts we got a new line of water pumps, of course off shore, so they WERE more affordable. I was always curious about things. We stocked a Pontiac pump, I noticed one day when looking up a pump for a customer. It was ALUMINUM!!! I thought wow, an affordable aluminum Pontiac water pump!!! I sold one to a customer that was building a strong 455 for a GTO. Sometime, less than a year, I think. He totes the aluminum pump in the door. It had failed, bearings shot, very little time on it. I warrantied it with another brand... I had bought one of the aluminum pumps for myself. I figured just a freak problem, mine would be OK..........NOT. Mine probably had 1000 miles on it. I bought a AC Delco NEW water pump. We sold aftermarket Delso parts, also. THe Delso was iron (at this point I didn't CARE if it was aluminum. Had a stamped impeller. At this time my TA was the only vehicle I had to drive. I was allowed to work on it at work one evening after hours for the repair. I modified the impeller plate as Jim Hands book instructed. That pump is still working, and cools great!!! THe aluminum had GMB on the outside, I guess a brand. I'll never buy another!!! |
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FlowKooler used GMB cores with impeller modifications. I don't know if they still do. |
Judging from the bottom pulley pic, Everything is too far forward from the front of the engine. That adds leverage to the pump casting. Add a little weight and imbalance?
I don`t think that pump would have failed on the factory v belt system. IMO. |
I agree with Punch ... the OEM pulleys are offset to the inside to locate the stress farther back on the shaft and bearings ... actually well BEHIND the end of the snout in most cases. I don't think the OEM pump was ever designed to have that kind of stress that far out on the snout, and certainly not an aluminum one.
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The pump on the new engine I have is a aluminum one that says Made in Japan on it.
Bought it from Ace back in the day. Works fine but going to a Meziere. Sucks the OP lost his radiator too. |
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