Looking for 614's or 722's
 

I need a set to put on a 433 for Vintage racing. Have to switch to Iron and a dual plane intake to be legal in a new sanction. Going to need around 600 hp and 7000 rpm's to be competitive.
Anyone built anything similar?

You will need some porting work to be done with either casting to hold onto 600 or better hp @ 7000 rpm since on average these heads flow 225 cfm, and a science out valve job can get them up to 240 cfm which is still only enough for making some 490 hp .

The 614 casting has a slightly lower port angle and as such when ported flows bigger Intake numbers particularly at .200" lift .

This is where you want the head head to flow big numbers like 145 cfm@28" of better( with numbers of 155 being great ) since that with the addition of a good tuned Exh system allows for high VE numbers and a slower nosing over of peak HP numbers also!

The highest vacuum you see in race motors that the Pistons can pull at wide open throttle and at 5% before the rpm of peak HP is 1 psi, a tuned Exh system with a merge type collector can apply 8 psi of vacuum before the Intake valve has opened and piston has even started its travel down the Bore!!

The placement of the overlap in the Cam you use will also be a big factor in success!

Here's a graph of in cylinder pressure readings of a 600 hp motor @ 6000 rpm plotted against a bunch of factors, it looks confusing but really isn't!

Look at the Red line and note the 180 degrees of the Intake valve opening cycle, note on that red line that the peak depression in the cylinder is 100 inches , yet the valve is only open some .075"!

That 100" depression is make by the Exh system creating and negative pressure wave that goes all the way back into the cylinder, and in case you have not noticed, that negative wave is nearly 3.6 times the common depression we test with on a flow bench!

At .200" lift the depression is still over 50% of that max of 100 inches!
You posted about having to run a duel plane Intake , does that have to be iron also?
This all assumes that porting is allowed of course.

On the intake I'd be running a Performer RPM and I have a Pro Systems 950.
I was hoping to be able to run D ports so I wouldn't have to swap headers but 3 different builders said those numbers were highly unlikely with D ports. IV's would give me the best option and yes, I'll have to find someone to do port work. Rules are internal engine mods are open.

I didn't know there was any difference between a 614 or 722 and with how hard they are to find I might have to take whichever. Given these will need everything new and be build specific, bare cores would be best.

I'd like to be around 11.5:1 or so, this engine has to live for long races. The bottom end is very solid and the cam I run performs well with the KRE's I have. Running solid rollers and 1.65 rockers for about .615 lift. I actually have a brand new cam I haven't installed yet, same specs but with a 4-7 swap.

Do the IV's come with the push rod hole already elongated?

600 hp can easily be had with fully ported D ports and that would save you atleast 600 bucks or more on swapping over to Round port headers, and those funds could then be put into the porting work on the D port heads!

So far I've had 3 shops, all highly regarded in the Pontiac world say that 600 hp using D ports, even heavily ported would not be attainable with the dual plane.
All three quoted major port work but all came in with about a 560ish albeit conservative max estimate, minus about 10-15 for the dual plane for a consensus of around 550 max.
Would 50 hp make that much difference? I have no idea. It's the 7000 top end I need most down the long straightaways.
One thing I've noticed is I have so much Tq already I can out pull about anyone off a corner, it's the top end where I get overtaken again.

As an option I am looing at D ports, I have two 433's, I can run the Aluminum head single plane engine with one sanction, Iron with the other. Just have to swap engines and be underpowered with D port Iron.
Getting a solid 600 and 7000 means I wouldn't have to swap.

If you do go 614s or 722s look at a single pattern cam, even John Angeles in his SS car uses one. My street strip car actually liked a reverse split.

IV's came stock with 11/32 pushrods and 1.65 rockers so if you dont stray away very far from that no elongation is necessary

Everybody knows that I'm no expert. :o

BUT, there are several 400 powered Stock Eliminator cars that are probably turning 8000 rpm or a little over, with D-port heads.

2 that come to mind are Randi Lyn Shipp's '67 Bird & John Schloe's '69 Bird.

And these heads/intakes are not supposed to to be ported. I assume they've have some sort of acid porting, which passes NHRA tech. So, if your rules allow full porting, correctly done D-ports should work for you.

The only guy running an iron head 428 drag motor, that I know of, is Carroll Warling. Norman Warling is a member here. He may be able to give you some info that would help.

Some of the quickest Stock & SS Pontiac engines are built by Parsons & Myers. Heads Up Cylinder Heads builds heads for lots of the quickest class racers in the country.

SS racer Greg Meyer has posted here that legal SS Pontiac D-port heads can cost up to nearly $10k. But, at today's prices, you can probably have a set built, for what you need, as cheap as or cheaper than buying a set of RA4 heads.

If it was me, I'd definitely talk to these Pontiac Stock & SS racers who are going quick with D-ports, BEFORE buying round ports. Just because one guy says it can't be done, doesn't necessarily make it so.

Bo Butner has probably spared no expense making Randi Lyn's Bird as quick as possible. I know the car has run low 10's. I'd try to find out who did the heads on her engine.

I'd also talk to members Greg Meyer & Norman Warling. Greg has run 9's with his 400 powered 3rd gen GT Bird. Carroll Warling has held the national record, with a D-port 400, & has recently built a 428 with #216 heads.

Scott Burton is another guy who has built some of the quickest D-port class cars. He also had the quickest ever RAIV powered Stocker. So, he's a guy who could really give you some info about making power with BOTH D-port & round port heads.

If you do go with round port heads, John Angeles may be the guy to talk to. His daughter Keri has run well into the 9's, with a '69 Bird. I think she 1st ran a 9, back in 2000. So, they've had 20 years of 9 sec experience, using round port heads.

Another round port option is the '68 RA2 heads. They should be a little cheaper than the RA4's. Have been several RA2 Bird Stockers run low 10's. 2 names that come to mind are Leo Glasbrenner & Bob Aceves. Leo has switched to late model cars. So, he may even have a set of RA2's he'd sell, or know where you could buy a set. And he probably knows all those Pontiac class racers out on the West coast. You can probably contact him thru his business, Remac Transmission.

https://www.remactransmissions.com/transmission-repair/

I have a set of 96 heads I might sell that have been gasket matched to r/a IV intake size. I have a 464 with 96 heads and a iron intake with qjet it made 583hp@6000rpm on the dyno. SD did that set of heads and intake for me. If you have any interest in the heads pm me I do t have them advertised for sale.

The last set of fully ported iron D port heads I did for a 400 motor flowed 280 cfm and the motor made 580 hp and I could have got them to flow more but the heads had previously been ported and material was taken out that I needed to allow them to top the 280 cfm level.

If you start off with a vergin set of D ports and someone who knows how to port them up right ( there are some 6 or 7 people in the country that can do that) then with your motors CID, as I said 600 hp can be had.

In a motor like yours I would also not run a roller Cam as a solid lifter Cam can Crank the valves open faster ad add that last 5 to 10 hp that will give you the needed reserve edge in power!

Jim Robertson, RACE.
Start with the correct 48 casting (there are a few). He will point you I the right direction.
We were successfully running heads up with SB Cheby iron head offerings from Dart and Pro Action with a set of Jim's Dports on 412 max cubes.
Some of these engines were from world class engine builders like Marsh here in NZ (personally held worlds fastest Carbed small block ET and MPH records) so no easy feild to qualify in let alone get on the podium 😎

"...I would also not run a roller Cam as a solid lifter Cam can Crank the valves open faster ad add that last 5 to 10 hp..."


So, you're saying that a SFT cam will make 5 to 10 hp MORE, than the correct roller cam ? :confused:

I've always read that the Super Stock & faster cars run solid roller cams because they make more power than SFT cams.

So, do you have dyno numbers comparing SFT cams against solid roller cams, showing that the best SFT cam for the engine will make more power than the best solid roller cam for the engine ?

It's just that in my country boy thinkin, if the SFT cams made more power, the SS guys would run them, instead of the solid roller cams they run.

Not saying that a SFT cam wouldn't be better, in some way, for a road racing car. I have no idea. Just wondering about the SFT cam making more horsepower than the correct solid roller. Never heard that before.

https://www.lunatipower.com/flat-tap...0the%20profile.

Yup! Due to the geometry of a roller and the stock block limit of a .842" lifter a solid lifter lobe as I posted can kick the valves open faster initially, but for the spring pressures needed to attain 7000 rpm or so the only advantage in running a roller in the 600 hp range is the start of the slight reduction in fiction.

Number 48 casting heads where never used on production 428 motors be they HO combo's or not, the number 46 casting on 360 hp 2 bbl 428s are often mistaken for number 48s!

If a 428 did slip out of the factory with number 48 heads it done as a one or two of situation so as to not tie up / stall the assembly line .

This has been seen many times as in the case of a late run motor that came stock with one 6X casting and one 5C casting.

"...the number 46 casting on 360 hp 2 bbl 428s are often mistaken for number 48s!..."


So, you are saying that a 360hp 428 came from the factory with a 2 barrel carb ?

Surely you can't be serious. Where do you come up with all this stuff that nobody else knows ?

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

Can you show dyno proof?
A flat tappet is limited by velocity (the edge of the lifter catches the lobe and kills everything) a roller isn't. For the same amount of duration you get more area with the roller vs a flat tappet.

"A flat tappet is limited by velocity (the edge of the lifter catches the lobe and kills everything) a roller isn't. For the same amount of duration you get more area with the roller vs a flat tappet."
Yep why back in the day the NASCAR boys used mushroom lifters.

There is a couple of nice sets of 722 in my area here. https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details...dId=1493964055 There's anther nice set in my area, just have to find them again.. Let me know if your interested and I can help you out.

I also have a bare set of 197 HO heads for sale. I could sent them to Dave, next door and you could arrange to have him build them up for you.

Charles

A roller cam has a different limit and it is called pressure angle. No I am not able to calculate it. The other thing Steve pointed out is how much side loading you can get from a roller lifter.

Stan

Not sure why the reference to fa tory offerings?. Pretty sure 772 never came out on a 428 either.
As far as Dports go, one variation of the 48 certainly has some advantages over other Dport castings and match the current headers which would allow their use.
In the right hands they certainly have the good to produce enough HP against the others, and we have proved that head to head.

What fuel? You compression limited?