[gomowgto]

I am having a problem with the input shaft bearing on a muncie 4 speed in my 67 GTO getting chewed up and we don't know why. I bought the transmission from Davids 4 speeds in Milwaukee Wis. and after a few weeks of driving it it started making noise, metal on metal noise. Sent it back to david, he removed the bearing retainer and two of the ball bearings were chewed right up. He sent me a brand new transmission and said that he would check the bearing in the new one and if it was the same as the one that failed, he would put a different one in. I got the new transmission, installed it and after 50 miles it's now making that same metal on metal grinding vibrating noise, and it sounds like this bearing is failing also. David told me by phone on the first transmission that he has no clue what could have caused its failure and that he pays a premium price of $56 apiece for these bearings and he of course was not happy. I am very happy with David and his standing behind these problems, but for two bearings to fail that quickly on two brand new completely rebuilt transmissions begs the question of what is causing it. I have checked everything on my end, new pilot bearing, new clutch kit ( three years ago less than 3,000 mi.) new bower release bearing, everything on my end is good. Does anyone out there have any ideas as to what could cause this. I don't want to point the finger but maybe cheap chinese metal??, not getting oil to the bearing, i'm not even sure how oil gets to the bearing. I think it is just from a hole that lets gear lube get into the bearing housing. I will be calling David on Monday and I know I am the last person he is going to want to hear from. Sorry for the long post, just wanted to cover all the questions you all may ask the first time around. Thanks again for all your help

[jd66]

If you have tore up 2 front bearings on 2 rebuilt transmissions I would first look at the pilot bearing then check the alignment on the bell housing. jd grim 66 gto

[gomowgto]

The bell housing alignment has been checked and it is true, the pilot bearing has been replaced with a new bronze style bearing. The car ran fine for 7 years with the original muncie that was in it when I bought it, the reason for replacing it was that the cluster gears wore and then then broke apart. Rather than rebuilding it we chose to just replace it with a new one.

[GT182]

Maybe the front shaft of the tranny is bent. Just because someone says it's new, it doesn't mean it is or that it's good to run. Someone checking things out could be pulling your leg too. This day and age trust no one unless it'd in writing and Notarized. Just my .

[gomowgto]

I have read other posts here about people that have used David West at Davids 4 speeds and have all had good luck with him. He has repaired the first one once and then replaced it with the one I have now and has not charged me a penny for anything, including shipping. I trust him and his ability to rebuild these transmissions. I pulled the tranny tonight, measured the input shaft and it is 6 1/2'' and it is definately going into the pilot bearing. That was one of the questions I was asked, correct me if i'm wrong but don't all muncies have the same length input shaft? I can't see anything obvious so tomorrow I will pull the bell housing and clutch to get to the pilot bearing to check it's I.D. and compare it to the input shafts O.D. Can someone tell me how to check the pilot bearing for alignment? have no clue. Thanks again.

[Andre]

Tough one. I'd have the bell housing checked for hairline cracks inside and out. Its the only thing that I can think of. Maybe it even contributed to the demise of your other transmission?

[gomowgto]

Thanks Andre, that's my next step today, the bell housing and clutch assembly is coming off, the bell housing is getting dropped off at my local machine shop to be magnufluxed tomorow and I am going to check the crank thrust, I don't think I will have any movement on the crank as the engine has less than 10,000 mi. on a professionall rebuild, but it is one of the things I was told to check and I want to cover all my bases. If anyone else out there can think of anything else let me know and I will check that too.

[tiger13]

I have been following a thread on another forum where a guy that runs a shop is having terrible trouble with aftermarket parts and a very very high failure rate. And these parts are NOT off label junk! these parts are name brand labels! He is getting killed on warranty work! And it is not just his shop either., seems this is getting to be a pretty wide spread thing. It seems like it could be from materials being used in manufacture.

[GT182]

There we go... bad parts. Nothing against David, just the parts as I intended to mean previously.

[geeteeohguy]

Have a friend with a late model Ford pickup who has experienced bearing failure twice in the 9" rear end. Turned out to be low-bid, Mexican bearings. Truck was kept mint and had less than 65,000 miles. The 9" rear in my '64 Galaxie was still fine after 30 years of service and 170,000 miles when I sold the car. USA made bearings. BIG difference. From what I've personally experienced, all new parts are inferior in quality to original parts.

[gomowgto]

Well guys I think I have found the perverbial smoking gun. David and others have asked me if the pilot bushing was good and I always replied that it was based on a visual inspection. After checking the ID with calipers it was worn to 17 mm and the input shaft tip measures 15 mm. A new pilot bushing measures 15.02 mm. That worn bushing flops around on the tip of that trans and wasn't supporting anything. That bushing was put in there about 5-6 years ago, but I then reinstalled the same old worn muncie transmission back into the car. I'm sure there was excess play in that input shaft and in 2012 the cluster gears broke on it causing complete failure. The only other thing that causes wear of the pilot bushing is misalignment of the bell housing and trans but I don't have that issue. There was no thrust movement on the crank as I figured and you can't magnaflux aluminum, but I have had other people look at it and we have applied pressure in opposite directions trying to expose any possible cracks and it appears to be fine. I am quite certain that the sloppy pilot bushing is the culprit, so I will be contacting David in the morning with my credit card number and a salt and pepper shaker as I like my crow seasoned. Feel free to confirm my suspicions about the pilot bushing, trust me it will make me feel great knowing that I have found the problem.

[chrisp]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Have a friend with a late model Ford pickup who has experienced bearing failure twice in the 9" rear end. Turned out to be low-bid, Mexican bearings. Truck was kept mint and had less than 65,000 miles. The 9" rear in my '64 Galaxie was still fine after 30 years of service and 170,000 miles when I sold the car. USA made bearings. BIG difference. From what I've personally experienced, all new parts are inferior in quality to original parts.

Xs. 2 i am with you , the quality is not there .

[geeteeohguy]

I use the factory bearing on mine, not a bushing. Bushings are more forgiving with a mis-aligned trans, but are not as good (in my opinion) as the factory installed bearing. That said, I would take a very close look at your bellhousing alignment using a dial indicator gauge. Visual inspection is not enough.

[gomowgto]

Agreed, that is what I plan to do. Never used a dial indicator and that is what I am doing on the computer tonight, researching how to do it. I have a guy that will loan me his, but he doesn't have the time to help me, so I have to learn from the internet. I don't know why or where I got the idea that the bronze bushing was oem, but after reading my service manual and my order catalog, they both say bearing and list the bronze bushing as an alternative or second choice. If I use a bearing then the bellhousing has to be dead nuts on center right? If anyone has a link or a sight they recomend to go to to read or watch how to index the bellhousing let me know.

[Goatracer1]

I hope you are right about your bushing causing the problem. They used to make off set dowels for bell housing alignment problems. Don't know if they still do. That said MANY years ago I put a 1969 428 (it was new at the time) in my 1965 GTO. The engine wasn't drilled for a pilot bearing so I installed it without one. Never wiped out a front bearing. Trans just kept popping out of gear. I finally got tired of it and removed the crank and had it drilled.

[gomowgto]

Talked to David West at Davids 4 speeds and told him what I found, and he said it was no question that a pilot bushing that worn caused the bearing failure. I used the poor mans method with a bolt threaded into the back of the crank and sticking through the trans opening and I can already tell that I have about .009 difference from top to bottom. .005 is max tolerance in any direction. They still do make offset dowel pins, .007, .014, .021. Will be getting a dial indicator on it this week and hopefully get it dialed in.

[gomowgto]

O.K. I got a dial indicator on the bellhousing and I have .016 total runout so I ordered 007 offset dowels from robbmc, but I am having trouble getting the dowel pins out of the block. Does anyone have any tricks for removing them from a pontiac 400 motor? The only heat source I have is a small propane torch. It's fine for small nuts and bolts, but doesn't phase those dowels.

[428goat]

Drill them, tap them, get a sleeve (piece of pipe) that goes over them and some good washers and the correct size bolt. Put it all together and it should pull out. Or just use a slide hammer if there is room.

[tiger13]

If you heat "them" they are going to expand and get bigger, and you are not going to get them out. If they are a force fit in the block, you are going to have to heat around them to expand the block, so it expands to release them. Or, there is a new "penetrating "oil" that freezes the stuck bolt buy freeze action, this would work also by reducing the size of the dowel pin by contraction in the block, just spray it right ON the dowel pin. Hope this explanation will help you.

[gomowgto]

O.K. tiger13, so I got a can of CRC freeze off and tried that, and it did actually allow me to turn one of them, but with the vise grips locked in place I could turn it from say the 7:00 position to the 4:00 position and back about four or five times then it would bind right back up. It only lasts about 30 seconds to one minute at best and they still turn so hard that there is no way to pull on them. I have heard that dry ice will shrink them even more and lasts longer so that I may be able to work them out. I also watched a video on youtube about a kid using a can of pressurised air that you you use to clean dust out of your computer keys, he inverts it, sprays it on water on top of a can and it froze it instantly. He says it is just like liquid nitrogen. He froze several things like this all having the same affect. Right now I will try anything that will get them out without having to pull the motor. I really don't want to do that and it seems there should be a way to get them out without going to that extreme. A welding company said to definately not apply heat with an acetelyne torch as this could damage the block, but the transmission shop says that's how they get them out all the time, just heat up the pins till they are cherry red and they pull right out. If anyone has been in the same boat I am and has found a way to get them out, please let me know. I will also try the drill and tap idea, that could work if I can get a drill in there straight.