[fyrffytr1]

I was talking to a mechanic at the transmission shop when I took my TH400 back to have the pump gears replaced.(Don't ask)and we got to talking about GTOs.  He said that he bought a 64 in early 65. 389 with a 3-speed on the floor. Anyway, about four or five years later he had to do a clutch job on it. That's when he found a Ford transmission and clutch in the car. The bellhousing had been redrilled. He called the Pontiac Dealer and was told that the Saginaw plant had burned down in late 64 and they had to gat trannys from other sources. Anybody else ever hear of this or was I getting my leg pulled? And, if you want to know about the pump gears read my last post in the 66-67 forum "Starting my frame off".

[78 GHOST]

Yup, I have heard about the Ford 3-Speed equipment. I don't remember the whole story, but have heard it.

GMC trucks used to have Pontiac power, so why not?

Many manufacturers have used components sourced from other manufacturers.. Rolls Royce has used the TH-400, Rover the Buick aluminum V-8, almost everyone has used the A-6 compressor designed by GM.

[Mike Davis]

My dad and uncle bought a 65 new- 389 tripower 3spd to race. Came with a Ford 3spd. The car had 433 gears in it. They found the 3spd was faster than the 4spd due to one less gear change to recover from. Was pretty common to find the Ford 3spd in them.

[bjacobs41042]

I am unsure of the Saginaw plant burning down, but my understanding is that the Saginaw gearboxes would not handle the torque of the Pontiac engine (Buick and Olds too.) My '69 Firebird had a Dearborn 3 speed in it, even though it was a 350 2bbl. It was called the "heavy duty" transmission option.

They still put the Saginaw in Camaros and the 6 cylinder Firebirds, making me think the story about the fire may not be accurate.

I am not an expert, but through this forum I understand Ford transmissions were apparently pretty common in GM cars in the 60's.

[mikeb]

My dad tells me of ford transmissions in pontiacs back in the day.

[71firebird400]

Also there were T-10's installed in 63/64 Galaxies- not as weird since a T10 isn't technically a GM part but still odd.

[Carl A]

Resto guide pg 273 --- For 1965 2- 3 speeds were offered, a Muncie (code x) and Ford built HD Dearborn (code S) available after March 1 1965. The 3 speed Dearborn was available all the way up to 1969.

[salem1912]

I had a 68 GTO with a Ford 3spd in it. I have a 69 Vette with a factory 3spd manual but it's a Muncie.

[Sirrotica]

I was around and wrenching on GTOs when they were only a few years old and I know for a fact as I have taken these trannies out for clutch replacements. They said FoMoCo right on the side of the case. The throwout collar (Front bearing retainer) was different than the ones used in Ford cars and the input shaft had the GM spline on it. Other than that they were Ford trannies, I believe that 65 was the first year that they were available and the weaker muncie 3 speed was used in the 64 GTO and broke with regularity. Another dead giveaway is the stock bellhousing is drilled for 2 bolt patterns the GM Muncie pattern is way different than the Ford pattern, and there are 8 holes in the back of the bellhousing, The GM pattern used 1/2 inch bolts and the Ford pattern is for 7/16 bolts. I know that Firebirds also used this tranny and I think the fullsize cars did also. The tranny was also available as has been said in Olds and Buick cars too. If you ever have looked at a Ford top loader 4 speed this 3 speed is also a top loader as there is no side cover and internal acess to the tranny is through a top cover. These were a much heavier weight wise than the muncie 3 speed tranny too as they were cast from iron instead of aluminum (probably why they were so indestructable too.) Yes it's really true, GM did use a FoMoCo 3 speed tranny. Oh one other thing they had Hurst shifters on them too.

[10secbird]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I was around and wrenching on GTOs when they were only a few years old and I know for a fact as I have taken these trannies out for clutch replacements. They said FoMoCo right on the side of the case. The throwout collar (Front bearing retainer) was different than the ones used in Ford cars and the input shaft had the GM spline on it. Other than that they were Ford trannies, I believe that 65 was the first year that they were available and the weaker muncie 3 speed was used in the 64 GTO and broke with regularity. Another dead giveaway is the stock bellhousing is drilled for 2 bolt patterns the GM Muncie pattern is way different than the Ford pattern, and there are 8 holes in the back of the bellhousing, The GM pattern used 1/2 inch bolts and the Ford pattern is for 7/16 bolts. I know that Firebirds also used this tranny and I think the fullsize cars did also. The tranny was also available as has been said in Olds and Buick cars too. If you ever have looked at a Ford top loader 4 speed this 3 speed is also a top loader as there is no side cover and internal acess to the tranny is through a top cover. These were a much heavier weight wise than the muncie 3 speed tranny too as they were cast from iron instead of aluminum (probably why they were so indestructable too.) Yes it's really true, GM did use a FoMoCo 3 speed tranny. Oh one other thing they had Hurst shifters on them too.

What he said....and they had unique to GM tailhousings and GM splined output shafts.

BTW, I've never seen an alluminum Muncie 3spd transmission.

[Primitive Artist]

Originally Posted by fyrffytr1

I was talking to a mechanic at the transmission shop when I took my TH400 back to have the pump gears replaced.(Don't ask)and we got to talking about GTOs. *He said that he bought a 64 in early 65. 389 with a 3-speed on the floor... That's when he found a Ford transmission and clutch in the car...

That's what he deserved for going cheap by not opting for the 4-speed box. How much did he save, back then? $20?

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Primitive Artist

That's what he deserved for going cheap by not opting for the 4-speed box. How much did he save, back then? $20?

actually most of the reason was insurance
there was a huge surcharge on "4 Speed"
they didnt care what else it was.
I currently have one of these for sale out of my
Firebird 400.Heres what they look like.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=562336

[stevep]

That transmission was indestructable.

[Sirrotica]

Well maybe the muncie was iron too, hard to recall every detail of all the trannies I've pulled in my lifetime. I do know that they didnt weigh anywhere near what the Ford tranny did. I do remember that all the saginaws I've pulled were iron and they broke at the mere sight of a dragstrip, You could blow a saginaw up behind a 6 cylinder chevy. Chevy used these in 6 cylinder and small block applications. As far as I remember Pontiac never even tried to used a saginaw 3 speed in their V8 cars.

[Thunderkiss65]

From Real Olds Powers daveh, a Olds engineer back in the day.

"Pontiac developed a destructive test for GM drive trains at GMPG and consisted of holding it flat on the floor and side stepping the clutch over and over until something broke. In nearly all cases it was the trans except with the Ford top loader. It was indestructible and the only transmission to pass that test.

I was assigned the project to see if we could package a Ford top loader 4 speed in a 66 442 (on paper) because of the high warranty on the Muncie 4 speeds in 65 and 66. It would go in, but the linkage was a nightmare and required a significant rework to the floor pan and trans mount. One car was converted to this, but the project was rejected"

"My first project at Oldsmobile (summer of 1966) in the transmission design group was a feasibility study on putting a Ford top loader 4 speed in a 66 442- on paper. They were destroying the Muncies right and left and warranty was off the map. At that point they had yet to have a Ford 3 speed fail even in the infamous GMPD destructive test that Pontiac developed to see what breaks first. Flat on the floor, pop the clutch, over and over until something breaks. That Ford 3 speed never failed first in their tests on a GTO.

We got that trans to fit and even got a linkage design that would somewhat work (converted one car in the X garage to try it); but wasn't production feasible for cost and failed the Art Weidman test. Art was the Chief Transmission Engineer at that time and we had to fool him into not knowing it wasn't a Muncie in there. He caught it in no time. Felt different.

I watched Weidman dive under the "442 Much" altered wheelbase car with the owner one night that summer at Onondaga dragway when he blew a trans racing the Turbine Dart in a match race. One phone call to the X garage, and he pitched the keys to his 98 to another young engineer for a very fast trip to Lansing up US 127 to pick up an experimental unit. While he was gone he and the owner/driver of the car had the old one out and ready for the new one just as the 98 came sliding back into the pits with the trunk already popped. Under, in and running in about 1 1/2 hours flat from when it first happened. Fun times. Think a GM exec would do that today? Or even be able to? Or even know where a transmission is and what it does?

Olds Engineering had cars at Onondaga practicing almost every Friday night. I drove my first W31 package car that night in a 66 F85 test car. It had the Ford 3 speed. Died in 2nd gear when the R's came down. Was light blue with a white painted top. What a 1st gear pull with a small block.

Bob Stempel (same guy that went to the top) was the Transmission Design Engineering Supervisor at the time, and my direct boss . He wasn't happy with me for telling him that I thought Oldsmobile's column shift (3 on the tree) sucked and you couldn't speed shift them like a Chevy, Pontiac or Ford. Obviously didn't enhance my career at Olds. That and the fact that I was a sloppy draftsman landed me in manufacturing across the street. Driving big tripower Pontiacs at the time didn't help that either. "

[66GTO Jim]

The 3 speeds Pontiac used from Ford were Borg-Warner transmissions. John Sawruk was one of the engineers that used to test transmissions in Pontiacs at the Milford Proving Grounds back in the 60s. He has talked about breaking Muncie's and Saginaw's regularly during "severe testing". The only trannies they couldn't break were the Ford Borg-Warners. He loves to talk about what they did to them and how frustrated they were that they held up to any abuse they could dish out!

I believe he is planning to be at this year's GTOAA Convention. If you go to his presentation or you see him walking around, ask him about it. It is one of his favorite stories from back then. Jim

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Thunderkiss65

From Real Olds Powers daveh, a Olds engineer back in the day....

"Pontiac developed a destructive test for GM drive trains at GMPG and consisted of holding it flat on the floor and side stepping the clutch over and over until something broke. In nearly all cases it was the trans except with the Ford top loader. It was indestructible and the only transmission to pass that test.

Good ole' Dave...



BTW - we still do this driveline test today. It's called a "rock cycle" test.

Originally Posted by Thunderkiss65

Olds Engineering had cars at Onondaga practicing almost every Friday night....

Royal is well known for practicing a Onondaga, Detroit Dragway and even on Woodward, but what may be less well known is that they also held test sessions on GM property, at the GM Milford Proving Ground.

Incidently, Dad specifically mentioned that our '65 was delivered with a HD 3 speed installed and the 4 speed thrown loose in the trunk. Since it was an early '65 I don't know that the timing works out but I have to assume it was this Ford 3 speed that we are talking about.

K

[stevep]

According to John Sawruk, that test was called the "Bonsai Test"

He asked that question to the crowd at his seminar at a POCI convention years ago and I among others raised their hands. He pointed to me, but didn't see who it was. When he saw me stand, he knew that I knew the answer and said that if he had seen my face, he would not have picked me!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by stevep

According to John Sawruk, that test was called the "Bonsai Test"

He asked that question to the crowd at his seminar at a POCI convention years ago and I among others raised their hands. He pointed to me, but didn't see who it was. When he saw me stand, he knew that I knew the answer and said that if he had seen my face, he would not have picked me!

I wouldn't have picked you, either...



In hindsight, that's probably correct. I think "Bonsai" implies repetitive cycles of forward motion only; "Rock cycles" are forward and then reverse cycles, repeated until something breaks.

I didn't catch that when I first read through it.

K

[Mr_GTO]

I had one in my 1968 GTO Convertible...sucker was HEAVY! Sold to a member here who lived in Vermont on the Canada border.