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#1
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Pistons and Rings
Building a 400 block, 4" stroke for the street but also planning on doing some open road racing. Might even try the Texas Mile or something similar. I do plan on driving this car a LOT. Trying to make some decisions on pistons and rings. It will have a Canton pan with the kickouts on both sides. I was thinking of using the Motion Raceworks catch can with breather tubes from both covers going into it to let it breathe. I called Total Seal and the guy told me either 1.5mm top and 2nd, or .043" top and 2nd and go with a 3/16" oil ring. He also said to use a gapless and gas ported ring. My intention is to have custom pistons made from 4032, coated, and maybe DLC coated pins. I want to make decent power and make it for thousands of miles. So longevity is important to me. Any thoughts?
In case you're curious...4.145" bore, Oliver 6.8 rods, KRE 290cfm CNC D-ports, Hyd roller w/ solids 234/244@.050 w/ .560" lift on a 112 lsa. RPM intake and an 800 cfm Q-jet. Planning on backing it up with a Tremec TKX and 3.50 gears out back.
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#2
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Talk to Paul K, he should be able to hook you up with some Racetec pistons with modern ring pack, coated, etc.
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#3
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I guess I should add that I'm mainly curious if anyone has experience with the thinner rings, gapless rings in a n/a application, or ported rings.
I can order pistons and rings myself. I know how to get all the math and info they need. I've always used the old standard 1/16", 1/16",3/16" ring pack or the factory ring pack and either Total Seal classic rings or Sealed Power. I just decided to put a LOT more thought into this one. This one is very special to me and I want to make sure it's as good as I can make it. No cutting corners on this one.
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#4
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Thanks for the referral Part of that information will be the ring pack.... Lol |
#5
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I had Total Seal gapless rings in my 455 motor, the leakdown rate was less then 2% ran great but had a lot of reversion. I removed them when I refreshed the engine and the reversion went away. I was using a header evac system. Perhaps if I had vacuum pump it may have eliminated the reversion. I think gapless rings may work better with a vacuum pump.
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Tim Corcoran |
#6
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I had pistons with 1/16" rings and was going to just run Classic file fits and be done with it. But I got one of my 2nd Sealed Power rings gap too big and getting a hold of Sealed Power tech was impossible.
So I called Total Seal and they were able to sell me a single cast iron 2nd ring. BUT, I ended up buying a whole new ring set. They were back cut to reduce tension and the top rings are ported. So this will be new for me too. Supposed to be worth 7-12HP , why not. Its only money right ! |
#7
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That statement is a real stretch because I can't see how there's any logical explanation that would allow you can blame reversion on good ring seal!
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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
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#8
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Far as i have seen; Gapless rings are for the experienced experts. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Half-Inch Stud For This Useful Post: | ||
#9
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We use thin ring packs all the time. It's a great way to add modern technology to our beloved Pontiac engines. Machining quality, finish and assembly become more important when using thin rings. They are a win-win at our shop. More power, less friction, less bore wear.
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#10
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The Following User Says Thank You to slowbird For This Useful Post: | ||
#11
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Yep, along with how far down to put the 1st ring, valve sizes, valve angle, valve drop, rod width, thickness above the pin, pin diameter, etc etc
It's been a very long time since I've posted on here. There used to be many experienced people on here. Hopefully there still is??? I'm just trying to gather information from many sources to educate myself on all the different types of rings, and what works best in certain applications. I've built a LOT of Pontiacs but I admit I had a couple different brands and types of rings I stayed with. Sure they worked, but were they the best for the application?? For this particular engine I want to do my best to make sure everything works together, and is as good as I can put together. I'm not going to strictly use what one person says, whether it's on here, another builder, or manufacturer. Right now I'm leaning towards Diamond Pistons and will most likely purchase the Total Seal rings I want through Diamond so that they know exactly what I'm working with. But it's not set in stone.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9eWgLd0q-U |
#12
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The Following User Says Thank You to PAUL K For This Useful Post: | ||
#13
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I can't explain it all I know is what happened in my motor. Just the facts.
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Tim Corcoran |
#14
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I've built a few motors with the thin "LS" rings - no problems.
Back in the late 90's I used a set of the Total Gapless 2nd rings. They were basically an iron ring with a groove for 2nd ring (like an oil scraper ring) and you stagger the end gaps. I'm not sure if they even make those anymore, a gapless top ring makes much more sense to me. Anyway, that motor lasted maybe a year, and it was burning oil. One (maybe two, it's been a while) of the gapless rings had cracked. They also had nothing to keep the rings from rotating (maybe they've addressed that issue with their newer rings) and several of the other had rotated so that the gaps were aligned (so no longer "gapless").
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'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'. '67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust |
The Following User Says Thank You to Lee For This Useful Post: | ||
#15
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The Chids & Albert design was much better than Total Seals. Last edited by PAUL K; 08-11-2023 at 02:17 PM. |
#16
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Yea, my "lesson learned the hard way" was Total Seal's Gapless 2nd ring. Total Swill
Used the Chevy thin stacks in the 455 with good results. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Half-Inch Stud For This Useful Post: | ||
#17
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How many NHRA ProStock engines are running gapless rings,How many Nascar Cup engines are using gapless..I know the answer!
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Checkered Flag Machine & Ceralli Competition Engines Racing engines and induction development http://www.checkeredflagmachine.net/ |
#18
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Well I'm not building a Pro Stocker. I am building an engine for more endurance, so maybe closer to Nascar. But I'm using a wet sump, not a dry sump. Not using a vacuum pump either. Also going to drive it on the street quite a bit. It all makes a difference in selection. I know Pro Stock and Nascar use (or have at least used at one time) a one piece oil ring. Probably would not be a good choice for me. So not sure that there's really much comparison here.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9eWgLd0q-U Last edited by Hillard; 08-11-2023 at 11:03 PM. |
#19
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That's easy.... What are the guys using that are stuck with fifty year old seasoned blocks that have cylinders that flex a lot?
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The Following User Says Thank You to PAUL K For This Useful Post: | ||
#20
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A Rev Limiter, duh. HIS
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The Following User Says Thank You to Half-Inch Stud For This Useful Post: | ||
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