[thews]

My 69 350 HO block (not original to the car) has a date code of Oct 28 (J028). I have 3 sets of #48 heads and the best pair has a date code of early December (L038), but I do have a set of heads built in October. The car was delivered in late January of 69. Is the date code on the block close enough to be considered "numbers matching"? Would I be better off having the head date codes match the block, or should I use the early December heads?

For those out there with numbers matching cars, what's the time frame for you date codes WRT the build date?

[jinxd68]

the date you have on your block is October 2nd 1968. i've seen in the industry an "acceptable" range as 3 months prior to build date of car. If it was me personally i would use the October heads to match the block. My numbers matching 400 68 bird was build 12D, December 4th week. the block has a casting date of L207(december 20 67), intake L137 and heads L017. Not sure if that answers your question or not but thats what i have seen.

[thews]

Originally Posted by jinxd68

the date you have on your block is October 2nd 1968. i've seen in the industry an "acceptable" range as 3 months prior to build date of car. If it was me personally i would use the October heads to match the block. My numbers matching 400 68 bird was build 12D, December 4th week. the block has a casting date of L207(december 20 67), intake L137 and heads L017. Not sure if that answers your question or not but thats what i have seen.

Thanks for the info. This is the block:



Is the number over the block code part of the car's VIN?

[WDCreech]

Originally Posted by thews

Thanks for the info. This is the block:



Is the number over the block code part of the car's VIN?

No! That is an engine unit number.

[johnta1]

There should be a partial VIN down lower next to the timing cover, about where the radiator hose outlet on cover is.

It'll look something like 29U1xxxxx with the 'U' depends on the plant car is made at.

[thews]

Originally Posted by johnta1

There should be a partial VIN down lower next to the timing cover, about where the radiator hose outlet on cover is.

It'll look something like 29U1xxxxx with the 'U' depends on the plant car is made at.

Thanks.

[6d7gto]

Engine should be earlier than the car's build date. Most engine components like the heads should be earlier than the engine casting date. Too early is better than too late in my opinion.

[68tpls400]

Originally Posted by thews

69 350 HO block (not original to the car) Is the date code on the block close enough to be considered "numbers matching"?

Please don't confuse 'numbers matching' with 'numbers correct'.

If you do not have the 'born with' block, you will never have a 'numbers matching' drivetrain.

May be semantics to some, but IMHO correct.

[thews]

Originally Posted by 68tpls400

Please don't confuse 'numbers matching' with 'numbers correct'.

If you do not have the 'born with' block, you will never have a 'numbers matching' drivetrain.

May be semantics to some, but IMHO correct.

I'm not sure where you came up with "numbers correct" to define this, but numbers matching means the part numbers and date codes are correct for the car. A "born with" drivetrain means the engine is the one the car came with. My "WN" block is a correct "numbers matching" block for this car. If it were coded for a Lemans, it may be exactly the same, but not numbers matching for the car.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by thews

I'm not sure where you came up with "numbers correct" to define this, but numbers matching means the part numbers and date codes are correct for the car. A "born with" drivetrain means the engine is the one the car came with. My "WN" block is a correct "numbers matching" block for this car. If it were coded for a Lemans, it may be exactly the same, but not numbers matching for the car.

There is no definitive definition of numbers matching. One could point to the EUN on the billing history card(the source of record for your vehicle)for your car and say that for it to be numbers matching requires the block in your car to be the one listed, to match. Anything less than this = not original and thus of lesser value in some people's eyes.

[thews]

Originally Posted by wovenweb

There is no definitive definition of numbers matching. One could point to the EUN on the billing history card(the source of record for your vehicle)for your car and say that for it to be numbers matching requires the block in your car to be the one listed, to match. Anything less than this = not original and thus of lesser value in some people's eyes.

I think there is a definitive definition to "numbers matching". The car was built with parts. Those parts have date codes and part numbers. If you have a 69 Ram Air IV car with a correctly coded block, it's numbers matching. If it's a SR block, that could have been done by the dealers, so I would also consider this on the side of "numbers matching," because it implies the history of the car included maintenance which required the block be replaced.

1969 was a long ass time ago. Not some, but most of these cars lost their engine at some point. I still have the "born with" transmission for my 69 350HO automatic convertible, but the engine in it now is a 68 Catalina 400... it's not numbers matching. If the inverse were true, and I had the correct engine, but a wrongly coded transmission (turbo 400), I could say it was mostly numbers matching, but that requires opinion to decipher.

The tall and short of it is this... if you buy a car with a close drivetrain, it's worth more money. If it has the "born with" drivetrain, it's worth even more money. If it's a hot rod with a Chevy 350 but looks mostly stock, it's worth less; that's the bottom line. To imply the block has to be original to the car to make the claim it's "numbers matching" is probably the opinion of someone fortunate to have the "born with" drivetrain that includes to correct VIN. This isn't semantics IMO... parts are parts and they have numbers.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by thews

I think there is a definitive definition to "numbers matching".

I would note that your definition benefits you which makes it suspect. I'm could be 100% wrong but I'm not aware of any large body (ISCA for example) that has waded into this debate. You may define it how you want but again, creating or agreeing to a definition that benefits your "case" and potentially financially is suspect.

Originally Posted by thews

1969 was a long ass time ago. Not some, but most of these cars lost their engine at some point.

Irrelevant. Also I would note that the whole point of the numbers matching definition is to exclude, not include vehicles and to a large degree denote those that deserve a higher value due to that exclusiveness. So, like some I prefer the more exclusive definition.

Originally Posted by thews

I still have the "born with" transmission for my 69 350HO automatic convertible,

I've only been in the "hobby" for 10 or so years, so the more wise and learned would have better perspective, but I don't recall the "born with" phrase until the last few years. Not that this is necessarily bad, but I see it as an attempt to carve out a more expansive definition of numbers matching. I'll stick to the one where the "born with" drive line is still intact. Yes, that is preferable to a SR with dealer replacement documentation which in my book wouldn't be numbers matching.

Originally Posted by thews

but the engine in it now is a 68 Catalina 400... it's not numbers matching. If the inverse were true, and I had the correct engine, but a wrongly coded transmission (turbo 400), I could say it was mostly numbers matching, but that requires opinion to decipher.

Originally Posted by thews

The tall and short of it is this... if you buy a car with a close drivetrain, it's worth more money. If it has the "born with" drivetrain, it's worth even more money. If it's a hot rod with a Chevy 350 but looks mostly stock, it's worth less; that's the bottom line.

Agree with this 100%

Originally Posted by thews

To imply the block has to be original to the car to make the claim it's "numbers matching" is probably the opinion of someone fortunate to have the "born with" drivetrain that includes to correct VIN. This isn't semantics IMO... parts are parts and they have numbers.

Second time in a month where the word fortunate has been used in reply to one of my posts. I'm not that fortunate, I'm a strict constructionist who doesn't wallow in the past about decisions I've had to make. As far as the semantics portion, it is and it isn't. The block on your engine has an EUN, it doesn't match what was produced on your Billing History Card from the factory. The numbers don't match.

PS An article from a couple years back where the author laments the degrading of the meaning of numbers matching...

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/c...sals-1.6154213

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by thews

To imply the block has to be original to the car to make the claim it's "numbers matching" is probably the opinion of someone fortunate to have the "born with" drivetrain that includes to correct VIN. This isn't semantics IMO... parts are parts and they have numbers.

It's not semantics, and we're not implying anything here. By definition, the car HAS to have the original, born with block to even hope to use the term Numbers Matching when you describe the car. Any block, SR, non original but correctly coded, or incorrectly coded and it is not. That's it, end of story.

[The Boss]

Date range depends upon where your car was built. The engines were ALL assembled in Pontiac MI and then shipped by train to the assembly plants. If your car was built in Freemont CA or Atlanta GA then the lead time would be longer.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Date range depends upon where your car was built. The engines were ALL assembled in Pontiac MI and then shipped by train to the assembly plants. If your car was built in Freemont CA or Atlanta GA then the lead time would be longer.

It is 4 AM my time zone and I haven't slept well, so am cranky and picky...but since we are in the '67-'69 Firebird section, I do want to point out that Firebirds weren't assembled in Fremont or Atlanta. Van Nuys, Norwood, Lordstown and apparently Antwerp, yes.

I really should go back to bed and not post.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by wovenweb

It is 4 AM my time zone and I haven't slept well, so am cranky and picky...but since we are in the '67-'69 Firebird section, I do want to point out that Firebirds weren't assembled in Fremont or Atlanta. Van Nuys, Norwood, Lordstown and apparently Antwerp, yes.

I really should go back to bed and not post.

Excellent point - not much distance from Pontiac, MI to Lordstown or Norwood but the point holds for Van Nuys regardless of the plants I named to make it.

Go get some sleep!

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Excellent point - not much distance from Pontiac, MI to Lordstown or Norwood but the point holds for Van Nuys regardless of the plants I named to make it.

Go get some sleep!

Yes, I agree with your point 100%, I'm most curious about the Antwerp date codes. Since they could have handled the assemblage of the parts prior to shipping in several way(collect all parts at say the Lordstown plant, put it into a container there then ship to outbound port, etc.) Or did they use Chevy engines like those that were assembled in Canada? Did they use Chevy engines for those assembled in Canada?

[The Boss]

What a waste of time!

[muscle_collector]

ill throw my 2 cents in here. when I remember back to being a young kid hanging out listening to my dad and his friends at their car shows and club meetings (1960's thru 1970's) and when I got into buying these cars in the mid 70's , when the words "numbers matching" was used it was referring only to the vin# stamped on the block matching the vin# of the car. sometimes the transmission #'s were brought up. when I was buying a car I never asked a guy on the phone to verify the numbers on the transmission because he was usually already put out to have to check the numbers on the block for me. when I would look at the car myself, I never went to the trouble of checking the transmission #'s until I had already bought it and had it home.
(my disclaimer to the above was the corvette group, they were checking carb, dist, alternator and starters back when my dad was in the clubs. that is why I quit the vette club back in the 80's they were just too uptight about everything)

[RamAir]

Here is a great opinion from attorney Bryon Shook who I retained on this very same issue to represent me against some clown who misrepresented a LS5 Chevelle I bought at auction:

The Sincere Definition of Numbers Matching

January 2, 2011 · Posted in News · Comments Off

Numbers Matching: From a Legal Standpoint

By: Bryan W. Shook, Esquire

Attorney-at-Law

BShook@dplglaw.com

A seller, an auction house, a broker, etc., all have express duties to not mislead buyers. It is the presentation that entices and induces a prospective buyer to make an offer or bid on a car. Often included within this presentation is the phrase “numbers matching”. Rarely in any field does a single term mean so much; in the field of car collecting, the term “numbers matching” means everything; or does it?

The phrase “numbers matching” was coined an untold number of years ago to describe a vehicle which retained its original driveline (i.e. the driveline that was installed into the vehicle during its initial assembly at its manufacturer’s plant). Specifically and most important in this definition is the engine; as this is the single most important aspect of a vehicle’s originality. There are some in the hobby, however that would have you believe that the phrase “numbers matching” has parted ways with its original and understood definition. These individuals would have you believe that the phrase “numbers matching” means that the driveline, has numbers appearing on its components, that look as though they could have been placed on there during the initial assembly process on the manufacturer’s line. This is where the issue with restamped engines and transmissions becomes ever apparent.

This disingenuous play on words is polluting our hobby.

Numbers Matching means ORIGINAL; the phrase and the meaning of “numbers matching” have never parted company. Numbers matching still means, as it always has, that the engine, transmission and rear axle are original to that particular vehicle. For the phrase to have any other meaning would render it flawed and unnecessary. The use of the phrase “numbers matching” in a disingenuous fashion opens the seller to a high level of legal exposure. The buyer who learns after he purchases the vehicle that the vehicle, is not “as advertised”, has the right to revoke his acceptance of the vehicle and enjoys many protections that come along with legal revocation. For example, these protections could include a statutorily created security interest in the vehicle up to the amount paid for the vehicle, plus certain expenses and other damages.

Any misleading use of the phrase “numbers matching” blackens the eye of the hobby. The only reason one would use such a deceitful definition of “numbers matching” would be in a cacluated attempt to mask the true nature of the vehicle for self-serving purposes. This ultimately has a negative impact on the hobby.

For more information on what your rights are in such a transaction, please call or email me, I would be more than happy to discuss this or any other matter concerning car collecting with you.

Bryan W. Shook, Esquire is a licensed Pennsylvania lawyer. Attorney Shook’s office is headquartered in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania although his practice takes him across the country. During his career, Attorney Bryan Shook has become a powerful advocate for his clients and one of the foremost collector, antique and automotive fraud and misrepresentation attorneys in the country. He has successfully tried as well as amicably resolved cases throughout the United States. Bryan Shook can be reached by e-mail at BShook@dpglaw.com or by phone