[1967Tempest]

My car is a 67 Tempest Coupe built in Baltimore. I have every ounce of documentation that survived with this car and NC says the rivets are incorrect. Is there any documentation out there that states the Tempest and LeMans got round rivets instead of rosette?

The tags have never been off of the car. They told me the other 2 locations and while I can do it, both of them will cost money.

Frame rail is $100.00 worth of shop time to get car on a lift and "sand" the 50 yo frame and "HOPE" the #'s are still there and they told me the other is in the heater core are, which well, we know what that is.

Does the GTO bible have any information on this? Or some one else? I'd like to get out cheap if I could.

The last option is to bond the title with insurance. Which is stupid as I bought the car from the original family who drove it off the lot and have had possession for 17 years.


Thanks in advance,
Dave

[steve v]

Dave, It looks like Dec of 64 was the changeover to the rosette style of rivets for the 65 model year. http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...und+vin+rivets

I had parted out a '67 shell a few years back & couldn't find any stamped vin on the firewall/under the heater box or anywhere on it........non ac car.

Can you get an inspection mirror above the frame rail to see if there's anything visible? The frame #'s may be your best bet. I would have thought the NC boys would have at least attempted that.

[1967Tempest]

They did "try" to look at frame , but the combo of mirror and flashlight wasn't the best.

[squidtone]

Ugh,
What a pain. I will say that I have a Baltimore built '67 and while I did find the partial VIN on the frame, I'm pretty sure it would have been just about impossible to see with the body on the frame. (I found it only after the body was off during it's resto) The stamping was VERY light and combined with a very slight haze of corrosion made it very hard to see. But some scuffing with a wire brush and illuminating from the side kind of made the digits "pop" out relatively speaking.
The partial VIN sequence was on the top of the level part of the driver side rear frame quite close to the body mount right behind the rear wheel well. It is about a half inch from the outer vertical side of the frame.
I will say also that I believe only "F" and maybe "X" body GM cars of that era had a VIN by the heater box. (they being kind of unibody cars)
Good luck.

[400 4spd.]

Originally Posted by squidtone

Ugh,
What a pain. I will say that I have a Baltimore built '67 and while I did find the partial VIN on the frame, I'm pretty sure it would have been just about impossible to see with the body on the frame. (I found it only after the body was off during it's resto) The stamping was VERY light and combined with a very slight haze of corrosion made it very hard to see. But some scuffing with a wire brush and illuminating from the side kind of made the digits "pop" out relatively speaking.
The partial VIN sequence was on the top of the level part of the driver side rear frame quite close to the body mount right behind the rear wheel well. It is about a half inch from the outer vertical side of the frame.
I will say also that I believe only "F" and maybe "X" body GM cars of that era had a VIN by the heater box. (they being kind of unibody cars)
Good luck.

All of that information matches my experience with first Gen. F bodies and Baltimore A bodies.

And it does sound like the rivets are wrong. I haven't discovered any body stamped VINs on a '67 panel to prove it's legit.

[Andre]

It seems like I have heard some threads on here or somewhere else about Baltimore and round rivets. You might do a search here.

[1967Tempest]

I did. A lot of cars from baltimofe seem to have round rivets. I need something concrete, and MC will take it.

[66sprint6]

What's wrong with the data plate, as mentioned in the thread title?

I guess that it's too late to switch out the rivets to satisfy them. Not that you should have to, but...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-GM-roset...lU~QJ3&vxp=mtr

[John V.]

Did you have any success?

I checked the Chevelle website for '67 Balt VIN tag examples. Only 3 examples. Also 2 '66 examples. All with rosette rivets.

Also checked '65, a few more examples and early year was round rivets then switched to rosette which is the accepted transition time frame.

Recently looked into this on the '64-'65 Forum.

The '65 Olds F85 Assembly Guide shows a change in rivet p/n with the date of Revision being 10-9-64 which is consistent with the approximate time frame when GM stopped using round rivets and started using the rosette rivets.

Read my complete post in this thread, the book I reference may be of some interest to you.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=803675

This doesn't help your case, I realize.

Have you looked at the VIN tag rivets with a magnifying glass? Possible that paint is making them look round?

Same as 66sprint6, I'm curious what looks wrong about the Data Plate rivets? I've seen incorrect rivets on Data Plates but I've never heard that the Data Plate is considered when registering a car.

Has the car been repainted? One "mistake" that some restorers make is to remove the VIN tag when painting the car.

In '64, the VIN tag was spot welded to the door jamb. PMD didn't even use rivets until '65.

As I mention in the thread, to my knowledge GM voluntarily went to the rosette rivets, no Fed law compelled them to do so. But sometimes a few states passed certain laws that compelled GM to react across the board. Could be the case with the rivets or maybe GM was just voluntarily trying to assuage the Insurance Industry to help discourage rampant auto theft.

It isn't clear that the change was made for theft deterrence because from what is shown in the Master Parts Catalogs, it looks like you could buy the rivets at any GM service counter. I do not know when state laws were passed making possession of such rivets illegal.

But VIN tag swapping was certainly a common practice as auto thieves laundered stolen cars by swapping on VIN tags from "clean" wrecks. Many of these cars pop up today, usually made obvious because the Data Plate info will not "match" to info obtained for the VIN from PHS.

Does it have the original trans? VIN stamp should be on the trans.

Does the PHS doc "match" to coding for Trim, Paint, and Body No. on the Data Plate?

Does it have the original block, any chance the Engine Unit No. is on the PHS and matches the block stamping?

Do you happen to have the original Protect-O-Plate. Not familiar with '67 P-O-Ps but earlier ones would have the EUN and other info that would help support a VIN match.

Restorers will swap VIN and Data Plate tags as a set onto good bodies today. But thieves didn't fool with the Data Plate, that is why VIN tag swaps are more readily detected on any Pontiac that was stolen 40-50 years ago when the car was new. The Data Plate becomes the giveaway. I have seen cars that had a Data Plate from a different Plant or a VIN tag from a '67 on a '66 or vice versa, Tempest VIN on a GTO, that sort of thing. The thieves weren't too particular as long as the car could be registered under the "laundered" VIN. Not until the cars became valuable as collector cars did evidence of these long ago thefts begin to surface. Multiple owners thru many years were oblivious that their car was stolen decades earlier and carries a mismatched VIN tag.

It is pretty unlikely that the original VIN tag rivets on a '67 Tempest were round regardless of where built from evidence I've seen.

But you might be able to challenge whether any law existed in '67 that required rosette rivets.

That said, I would want to dig deeper if it was my car just to assure myself that the frame VIN matches the VIN tag and check for any other possible evidence of a VIN mismatch.

[ponchjoe]

I'm no expert for sure but the assembly line part controller could've found a box of old stock and sent them through to then be put on? This does not help with concrete evidence, could Mattison weigh in old help by chance? Post a pic!

[1967Tempest]

I will post a pic of the rivets today if I can swing by the storage unit. Everything I have matches.

The VIN tag, data plate, protecto-plate, I even have the original inspection tag from 66 that matches!!

[IMG][/IMG]

[1967Tempest]

Before I get crazy, does anyone have a picture of the frame with the VIN?

[steve v]

Dave, Did you see this older post where 6704gto said his original Baltimore GTO had round rivets? He says his mom bought the car new.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...+gto+frame+vin

Maybe pm him to see if you can get a build date on his car or any other info to back up your case.

[mcmurb]

On my Baltimore 67, the VIN is stamped on the driver side, top of the frame between the hole for the resonator hanger and the star shaped hole in the side of the frame. The number is on the outside edge and is easy to see with a mirror and flashlight. i will try to get a pic later, but try a scotch pad and degreaser for a while and see if something emerges.

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by 1967Tempest

Before I get crazy, does anyone have a picture of the frame with the VIN?

Drivers side behind rear wheel. Kansas City car.

[1967Tempest]

That's for that pic. I found it. They match. Was a little further back than yours and the font is different but it's there and they match.. yay!!

For my next car I'm going to by a GTO for $40,000 and clone it into a Tempest..

[Old Goat 67]

AND, only you would know!

[1967Tempest]

Title was in the mail today. Thanks for all of your help!!!

[hog1340]

Number is on top of frame? 67tempest, did you pull the body of the game to see it?
Congrats on receiving the title.

[1967Tempest]

No, small mirror with a bright flashlight and sand paper!! The DMV police officer saw it as well.