[Dick Duclow]

There has been much talk of all the "problems" with the Indian Adventures block. This board is a good place to clear up any questions.
A. There have been no porosity problems, no core shift problems, no failures in use.
B. The block was designed to use ALL pieces of an existing Pontiac 400-455 style engine.
C. A part # was offered by GM..We declined. They wanted a large "piece of the action" on EVERY block sold. It would have raised the price considerably.
D. The block design allows the use of a Chevrolet bellhousing (as well as Pontiac) and the use of Chevrolet lifters (as well as Pontiac). This was done to lower building cost to the end user.
E. The price will NEVER come down. We would need to sell 3261 blocks to recover our up front cost of design and manufacture. The potential market is around 1000.
F. Finally, it has been implied that we did this with deposit money. We never held more than $25000. in deposit money. The project cost was DEEP six figures. If profit was the motive, we failed miserably. If providing the Pontiac racer with a solid foundation for serious HP was the motive we met our goals.
Anyone who has asked us about this block was answered honestly and promptly, and we will conyinue to do so. We won't, however, respond to hearsay, or inuendo.

[Dick Duclow]

There has been much talk of all the "problems" with the Indian Adventures block. This board is a good place to clear up any questions.
A. There have been no porosity problems, no core shift problems, no failures in use.
B. The block was designed to use ALL pieces of an existing Pontiac 400-455 style engine.
C. A part # was offered by GM..We declined. They wanted a large "piece of the action" on EVERY block sold. It would have raised the price considerably.
D. The block design allows the use of a Chevrolet bellhousing (as well as Pontiac) and the use of Chevrolet lifters (as well as Pontiac). This was done to lower building cost to the end user.
E. The price will NEVER come down. We would need to sell 3261 blocks to recover our up front cost of design and manufacture. The potential market is around 1000.
F. Finally, it has been implied that we did this with deposit money. We never held more than $25000. in deposit money. The project cost was DEEP six figures. If profit was the motive, we failed miserably. If providing the Pontiac racer with a solid foundation for serious HP was the motive we met our goals.
Anyone who has asked us about this block was answered honestly and promptly, and we will conyinue to do so. We won't, however, respond to hearsay, or inuendo.

[Paul Spotts]

well said Dick - I have pictures of the tall deck block I sold Paul Rash if anyone wants to see it.

[Bob Dillon]

Dick,
Although I am not in the market for an IA block, I've read the posts from doubters and wondered as well.
I think the most important thing about Chief Many Horses is that there is some ACTIVITY in Pontiacs. How long have the Brand C guys been able to build a complete engine without buying or acquiring a single factory part? This just continues to feed the development of the competition.
Perhaps we will someday soon see, thanks to your entrepreneurism, somebody (maybe even you!) casting Pontiac heads in iron, and then a few others, until we guys have the huge choices available to the other guys.
I continue to wish you every financial success. I am sure it took more than one "gulp!" before you took the big step with time and money. I commend you, and thank you.

[Gach]

Dick, I notice you started a new post, yet you failed to respond to my post. addressing the overbore problems that I brought up. Please respond, I have seen three Uni-bore test that won't support and over bore more then 4.310 and still have a safe wall thickness of .180. also meaning the block would have to be filled. Although I stronglly feel, that in a blower motor application you really need a minum of .200. thickness. Now with this new board, I'm not able to post those test results. You cleverly mentions "no failures" and "no porosity", while at the same time avoiding addressing my question relating to the overbore problem. We were also told, that testing would be done with a blower motor and from what I under stand, the test motor in Jim Butlers car is only a 500 cid, which would be more like 4.250 over bore.

[Gach]

One more question, other then Butler with his nitrous motor, how many motors are in use, and in what applications, and could you give us a list on names of the people who have these blocks in use. A bow tie block is .250 at max over bore 4.625 , why was you able to come even close to these numbers, I under stand the bow tie blocks have a bigger bore spacing, but surly a .200 wall thickness should have been attainable with a 4.373 over bore.

[boykoman]

I too would like to here more about test result etc.I am very interested in purchasing a block in the near future.Also I was wondering re: the tall deck . Which parts would have to be fabricated and which parts are bolt on.For example timing chain cover, oil pan etc.

[Dick Duclow]

Gach and Boykoman,
As I stated in an earlier post (old board) no blocks have been shipped that would be unusable at 4.375. For serious all out race engines hard block is still the way to go. We build this as a "water" block for those desiring street use. This does NOT mean the block has to be hard blocked. It's just an alternative.
The Tall Deck requires a different oil pump shaft, intake spacers, timing set, and valley pan. All of which we have available. The timing chain cover would require minor clearancing for a double roller chain, or BOP Engineering has an excellent belt drive.

[Engo]

Dick, what is the maximum bore and stroke for the IA block, stock and tall deck respectively?

[tempest455]

Gach, Tom Herman's new motor is an IA block combo from JBP. It has been dynoed and is ready to go! This car should realistically run low 8's on NOS. Eagerly waiting for spring!!!!

[Tom McQueen]

My tall deck block is going in my 70 4 speed GTO. Since it will be a street motor with an occasional blast down the quarter mile, I am assembling it with an eye toward long term reliability. Since the good Fel-Pro gasket will fit bores to 4.3", thats the bore Im using. Leaves more meat in the cylinder too. For a crank, Im lookin at a Crower billet 4.5" stroke. Since its a tall deck, I can use a set of 7.4" Oliver rods which gets me a real good rod to stroke ratio and leaves plenty of room for a 1" pin and a piston with the rings set down .300 just in case I get the NOS bug. Should run pretty good.

[Dick Duclow]

Maximum bore (with room for cleanups) is 4.375. Maximum stroke in standard deck is 4.5" In the Tall Deck we moved the cam up .386 which leaves room for a 5" stroke. Combined with a 4.375 this gives 608 CI to get 619 you need a 4.440 bore. (the max, and hard block would be needed)

[Rob]

Couple more things to add to the discussion, With 4.440 bores the siamiesed part of the cylinder is .185 inch and on block number 40 that would make the cyl wall .225 inch in the worst place where water can touch the backside of the cylinder that unibore measured it. How does that compare to stock blocks? I figure .185" is pretty good, seeing as how I just had my .030 over 400 block mic'd with .090" thickness between adjoining cylinders. It was VERY important to get rid of the water between cylinders to make the big bore Pontiac possible.

-Rob

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 12-25-1999).]

[Gach]

Wait a minute, the Uni-bore test I saw will not allow a 4.373 bore, and still have a .180 wall Rob, your trying to change the subject here, and there is no WAY this block will take a 4.440 bore, that is misleading to me, unless you got a better block then what I've seen. I'd like to see your Uni-bore test on the block your talking about.Other sonic test have shown it to be even thiner then that, From what I've seen that block could only go to 4.310, and would still have to be hard block, if your planing on making over 1200 hp. In some spots after the over bore of 4.373 the block is only .128 wall. Dick, what's the bore size on Butler's test block ? From what I've been told it's only a 500
cid, you've said all he did was change his parts from his block into the new block. I see no problem with a bore of 4.250, and making 800 hp. then hitting it with 500 hp shot of nitrous. What I don't under stand is why these Uni-bore test wern't made available allot sooner, the date I saw was 7-29-99, here it is 12-25-99 an it's the first ones I've seen. Looks like no one has seen any of these test untill they've recieved there block.

[Scott Misus]

Dick: Given your numbers, where is the Pontiac head, TODAY, that is going to provide the airflow #'s to support a 540" engine? At what cost?

[Dick Duclow]

Scott,
Heads are the NEW problem, to feed a 540" engine we need about 375-400 CFM. Currently the E heads can be taken to around 370 CFM, but it's costly. You need shaft rockers, wildly offset rockers and lifters, etc. That's the next big challenge. I know the new Wenzler hi port will go to 400+ CFM and several people are working with that head. There are also some other designs being given consideration.

Gach,
Nothing IA says os does is going to please you...BUT...you can have the final say, simply don't buy one!!

You can please some of the people....well, you know what I mean.

[Dick Duclow]

Gach,
Just a thought, remember if you bore .250 you're only removing .125 from the walls! Maybe this is where your coming up with thin walls?

[Triggerman]

Dick, I'm assuming that turbo charging, supercharging and nitrous oxide are all alternative methods for getting around the current situation with limited head flows. The current limit to power production with these types of systems seems to be block integrity...which the new block should take care of.

[Scott Misus]

Dick:

I think that, without knowing Gach, you may be misinterpreting what he is trying to say. Gach is an old timer with a lot of knowledge. Lou was racing Pontiacs when I was in kindergarten; Anybody with that much seat time under his belt has got to know SOMETHING! His opinions are usually based upon pragmatic experience gained from extensive, expensive self-education. I have spoken with him on the phone on several occasions and he is always courteous, gracious and helpful. And candid.

His opinions are usually held close to the vest, unless pressed for them. For example, when he bought a pair of heads for his own evaluation (not that of the "experts"), he was positively impressed by the minimal amount of work that was required to produce results far exceeding those of his iron RA4's. However, like most of us, he has other financial commitments which no doubt delayed the purchase and testing while other day-to-day expenses were being met. Consequently, Lou found that, dollar-for-dollar, the E-heads can in no way be beat. You'll find that he carries a huge torch for the E-heads.

Conversely, his opionion of the Wenzler head, given the amount of money required to make them right, is not so glowing. His experiences with a pair of heads purchased directly from Larry, as opposed to buying them from KRE, greatly soured him on their reputation as a quality item. His friend spent over six grand getting them done correctly. Lou was totally unimpressed by the fact that Larry doesn't use a blueprint, for example, when laying out the water passages and bolt holes; he makes a tracing with a head gasket. Lou's (Gach's) feelings about them aren't masked. In his opinion, they're "total junk." Six grand to have a head that flows 340-370 is, in his view, laughable. However, when the price of the Wenzler heads becomes in line with their quality, he'll undoubtedly be their most ardent supporter.

Now, addressing your block: Don't interpret his comments to indicate that Gach isn't a supporter of it. I'm a career salesperson and have found, like yourself, no doubt, that my best customers were initially my worst prospects; i.e. the biggest pricks. Initially.

What I've found is that Lou has a lot of dyno, machine, wear testing, and School of Hard Knocks experience. I think his questions and the doubts he's got in his mind stem from several facts:

1.) The testing is being done by the Butlers, who prior to 5 years ago, were relatively unheard of. Lou also, obviously, has little respect for those who run phenomenal numbers using loads of juice in 1900 lb. cars. His other beef lies in the fact that he feels that both the Butlers and yourself aren't being up front and truthful with either the components used in the testing, nor that the advertising promises made with respect to safe bore sizing are currently being proven in testing. As an aside, I recall asking you, in annoying detail to list all of the components being used to product the 7.44 run by Butler Jr. about two months ago. To date, that inquiry has, for whatever reason, gone unanswered. My personal feeling is this: You, as well as Jim Butler, are salespeople. You have a fantastic product, though yet unproven, to sell to Pontiac enthusiasts. These people seem certainly willing to open their wallets. The "proof", however, seems to be confined solely to the testing done by the Butlers. The components tested, the overall costs involved, and the results of those tests seem, real or perceived, to be less than forthcoming in their publication. When I attempt to sell a product to a potential client, I do my best to ensure that he/she is fully aware of the costs involved, not just of the initial item, but of all the peripheral support items as well. I don't think this subject (heads that will support a 540-619" motor, crank, sheetmetal intake, etc.)has been covered very well by you.

2.) Gach is not an easy man to impress. However, Marty's accomplishments with turbos has definitely caught his attention. Lou seems to be a bit miffed by the fact that Marty wasn't given, sold, or stolen, a block to test. I think Lou's ire may also stem from the fact that Marty isn't a vendor of this block and, as such, wouldn't conceal his combo, reults, or the components employed in its testing. I think Lou feels that the Butlers aren't showing all their cards, as he thinks Marty would have.

3.) He's seen the results of a UniBore testing and has had contact with a customer who has purchased a tall deck version. This customer claims to have had the bores checked out by 5 different sources, all agreeing that the block won't deliver on your promise of 619".

Lou's not from Missouri, but he's still saying "Show Me." Once you do, I think he'll be a more ardent supporter.

Scott

[Bob Dillon]

Well put, Scott.
Dick, I think, judging from your reply to Gach above re "don't buy one," that you're maing an enemy out of someone who could be a wonderful ally. Question: How far are you from Westerly, RI?
This may be unsolicited advice, but Mass isn't that far away. Why don't you invite Lou up to discuss the matter and maybe tour your facility? Personal discussions tend to ne more civil than posts. Could it be done?
One more thing: All of us are good at something and bad at something. I've learned over the years I've "known" Lou that the FIRST thing one should do is disregard his written English. Gach is the guy (with whom we're all familiar) who sat in the back in Freshman English and read HOT ROD while the rest of us were being taught how to tell a verb from a noun, and spell. To judge him as a lightweight or disregard his input or freely-offered advice because his English can border on the comical (LOL, Lou!) is a bad mistake for anyone who wants to go fast.
In closing, and with respect, I continue to believe that both Scott and Gach are focusing too closely on the new block itself and not what a boon it is to our hobby. Let's all hope that it's a huge success, and that iron heads and other aftermarket parts follow it as sales indicate to those dedicated entrepreneurs and risk-takers like yourself, Dick, that there is money to be made.