[Brian Baker]

Ventura, I wasn't trying to take anything away from what Steve is trying to accomplish, I was merely trying to make him see how much of an a$$ he sounded like with his last comment.

Doesn't matter that he wasn't driving, he's still tuning it. You make it sound like "running 7's in a go kart" is easy. Well, if it were, everyone on this board with a dragster would be doing it. Steve is still sorting out his tuneup, and when the clutch is finally figured out and he can keep all 8 candles lit at the same time without grenading it, it should run solidly into the 6's at well over 200-MPH. Like many of us though, Steve has too many pokers in the fire, which takes away some of his focus on the dragster. I've told him before via email (and others probably have too), that if he quit trying to compile so many different race cars and just concentrated over the next year or two on the dragster, he'd get what he's going for, and that is the quickest and fastest 1/4 mile ticket ever by a traditional Pontiac powered vehicle.

[Scott Misus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTOGEORGE:
I agree with the DUDE we should stick to the last couple of years. History is great but that's just what it is ....HISTORY. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, don't you see, George?

That's the thing about Pontiac racing history; and the sad thing, as well.

Those numbers that were put up as far back as 35 years ago, really haven't been marginally improved on in as many years.

It's particularly sad, especially given the huge strides made in engine block, cylinder head, induction, and camshaft design in this long of a time frame.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Doesn't matter that he wasn't driving, he's still tuning it. You make it sound like "running 7's in a go kart" is easy. Well, if it were, everyone on this board with a dragster would be doing it. Steve is still sorting out his tuneup, and when the clutch is finally figured out and he can keep all 8 candles lit at the same time without grenading it, it should run solidly into the 6's at well over 200-MPH."

Steve is another guy who gets little respect from some because HE DOESN"T DRIVE THE RACE CAR
(yet).

His time will come.

If we didn't have the history, everyone would think George or Kenny was fast.
Actually they both are in some ways.

Kenny goes fast considering that he is trying to run a business, keep Karen happy,
and develop a new blower package.

George is fast considering that he does it as a hobby, he is on a limited budget, and
has other more important things in his life like his family.

I have no excuse for Ray! Just kidding Ray!

Tom V.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Misus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTOGEORGE:
I agree with the DUDE we should stick to the last couple of years. History is great but that's just what it is ....HISTORY. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, don't you see, George?

That's the thing about Pontiac racing history; and the sad thing, as well.

Those numbers that were put up as far back as 35 years ago, really haven't been marginally improved on in as many years.

It's particularly sad, especially given the huge strides made in engine block, cylinder head, induction, and camshaft design in this long of a time frame.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scott, I disagree.

It's only been in the last 10 years of the 35 that you mentioned that any degree of improvement in parts has occurred.

And as for the times, we have racers today that are going as fast as Top Fuel cars did 35 years ago, and they're doing it in heavier door cars on alcohol.

[ventura7211]

Brian, What I was hinting around too, is that if Steve wants to be so historically accurate about everything then we need to know who the man behind the wheel was as he's what was in the ride. If you notice Welter's(sp? lol) pass has Butler driving with him mentioned.

The other problem I have is Steve is bad about belittling others accomplishments and disregards that they are putting up some stellar numbers for the type of car used and more importantly weight. It takes a helluva lot of power from Rex to put up his times in his car, now take that motor and put it in a 1900 pound dragster and it will run...

Misus: Agree

"Doesn't matter that he wasn't driving, he's still tuning it. You make it sound like "running 7's in a go kart" is easy. Well, if it were, everyone on this board with a dragster would be doing it"

It is easy install a BBC. No the point was 7's in a door car is alot more impressive in my mind vs. in a dragster of anykind. As for the rest of the performance ifs and whens don't go far when it comes to time slips produced.

[Wade Congdon]

I for one would like to see the most comprehensive list possible, even if it means the 50 fastest. Then any subset could be easily broken out to show better comparisons.And the more info the better. Year of ET, Year, Make, Model, Weight, Power Adder, Source, Driver, etc. And I agree with Steve that each car shold be listed even if the same driver campaigned it. Let's face it, the magazines are never going to compile a fastest Pontiac list, and if they did they wouldn't necessarily have the resources we have here thanks to the web.

[Scott Misus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
It's only been in the last 10 years of the 35 that you mentioned that any degree of improvement in parts has occurred.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That doesn't matter.

Illustration:

Take Arnie's best times, in either his '68, '69 or '70 funny cars.

Then, take a look at what he used for:

1. block/cylinder heads/head flow cfm/intake manifold
2. crank
3. camshaft/springs
4. ignition system
5. fuel system, and pump gpm
6. blower size and rotor configuration
7. transmission type
8. tire type, size and compound
9. chassis type, design and technology & wheelbase.

Arnie:

1. factory block
2. factory cylinder heads; 421SD & RAV
3. factory crankshaft; 990
4. low rise, cast M/T blower intake
5. camshaft and springs probably mild by today's standards; probably used 4 cyl. Tempest timing chain.
6. ignition system: Vertex magneto; 3 amps
7. Enderle 110, probably 12 gpm
8. Blower was a 6-71, probably magnesium; 60 degree rotors with no teflon or nylatron strips.
Enderle bugcatcher injector; small barrel valve; no Racepack computer.
9. TH400 tranmission, mfgd by General Mistake.
10. No idea on tire size, but it definitely wasn't a 17x36 funny car tire.
11. Chassis was a Logghe square tube frame with coil sprung suspension front and rear.

Bill Mellott(or Rodney Butler): I can't comment on Rodney's hardware, as I've never seen the car. I'll stick with what I somewhat know about Bill's:

1. $3500 IA block
2. $10,000 billet heads/$2500 billet blower intake
3. Crankshaft: billet?; $2500 Crower?
4. Camshaft: I'm assuming big; 290 duration?
5. Ignition: $3,000 MSD 44 amp Pro Mag with $600 offset magneto drive.
6. Fuel pump: Enderle 1200; 19 gpm.
7. Blower: Littlefield 14-71 with high-helix rotors, probably Kobelco. With teflon and nylatron strips. $2500, used.
8. Injector: Enderle buzzardcatcher with big nitro-style barrel valve.
9. Racepack computer.
10. Lenco 4 speed; $3500 used. Crower clutch $2400 used.
11. Tire size: 16x33?
12. Chassis type: current moly/strut/4 link.

This is not meant as a commentary on either Bill's equipment or on the Kaufmann's abilities. It's simply a comparison between what I feel is fast today, and what I feel was fast 35 years yesteryear.

And I won't even begin to compare the accomplishments of the Butlers' (full-time, professional engine builders, with extensive outside R&D and turbocharger consultants on the team), and the stratospheric costs of their hardware, versus the 35 year old accomplishments of a modest farmer from Morrison, Illinois......

One can't possibly be a fan of fast Pontiac racing and not, at least conciously, make the comparison between where we are now versus where we were then.

And nobody's condemning Scott Rex's accomplishments, either. Scott could choose to use any power adder he wants; rather, he's decided to make a name for himself by going it "naked" with carburetors only.

I'm done now.

[Jagtec1]

Learning something new every day.

[Ray Cox]

as much respect as I have for the history, its way different now, and all the Hp guys Rex,Jack Bruce and some others I respect just as much, steve Im suprised you could do what you do and not respect others your starting to sound like minus.

anyone who thinks what we do is easy, I dare you to try it! power adder or not, it dosent matter how much power you make you have to control it and if you cant respect moving 3400 lbs to the 60 foot in 1.3 sec on a 10" tire ( which has HALF the ground surface contact most of you run) then youll never be the fastest at any thing because you dont respect the power you know how to make

[Scott Misus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Cox:if you cant respect moving 3400 lbs to the 60 foot in 1.3 sec on a 10" tire ( which is HALF the ground surface most of you run) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Half, huh?



So tell me, Ray: Who do YOU know of who is running a 20" tire?

[Scott Misus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Cox:
as much respect as I have for the history, its way different now, and all the Hp guys Rex,Jack Bruce and some others I respect just as much <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? What's different? And what bearing does it have on anything that has been discussed previously?

[Ray Cox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Misus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Cox:
as much respect as I have for the history, its way different now, and all the Hp guys Rex,Jack Bruce and some others I respect just as much <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? What's different? And what bearing does it have on anything that has been discussed previously?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes stupid "HALF" if you new anything about tires, tire patch and hooking a car you would be able to calculate it and know what I meant tire width is not the only factor but I wasnt talking to you anyway minus your to arognat and stupid to waste time with

[Scott Misus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Cox: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes stupid "HALF" if you new anything about tires, tire patch and hooking a car you would be able to calculate it and know what I meant tire width is not the only factor but I wasnt talking to you anyway minus your to arognat and stupid to waste time with[/QUOTE]

1. I'm the stupid one, eh?

2. You said "half." I'm still waiting to hear of the people you know who are running a 20" wide tire.

3. This is an open forum, Ray.

[Rob]

Can we get back to discussing in a civil manner why it's cool getting these Pontiacs moving so far so fast!

History is always going to be important, but perspective is too. Just like where/how you measure mph. Scott's Bird went 180.09 measured in the last 66 feet of the quater mile doing it in around .2498 of a second. Many tracks used to measure mph after the quarter mile for 100ft making the driving through the traps important for consistant numbers. Even tire diameter can fudge the mph numbers.

I like the way we now compare 60, 330, 660, 1000 and 1320 fairly the same. New racepak computers are even more exciting.



-Rob

[Ray Cox]

Sorry Rob just hate seeing a guy like minus that dosent do anything or have a clue talk about somthing he knows nothing about.

[Old Man Taylor]

In the interest of accuracy, the mph clocks used to be 132', 66' before the finish line and 66' after. They dropped the last 66' because of the increasing speed of the professional cars.

[Rob]

Thanks Jim, guess that points out that the first guy to organzine the mph was trying to make a simple math formula where spliting the 132foot distance before and after finish line would give precise result.

I suppose the way we measure the mph then or now is still a bit off for the exact moment crossing the finish line. Wonder if they'll use lazer detection for mph someday to be "more right"?

-Rob

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ventura7211:
Brian, What I was hinting around too, is that if Steve wants to be so historically accurate about everything then we need to know who the man behind the wheel was as he's what was in the ride. If you notice Welter's(sp? lol) pass has Butler driving with him mentioned.

The other problem I have is Steve is bad about belittling others accomplishments and disregards that they are putting up some stellar numbers for the type of car used and more importantly weight. It takes a helluva lot of power from Rex to put up his times in his car, now take that motor and put it in a 1900 pound dragster and it will run...

Misus: Agree

"Doesn't matter that he wasn't driving, he's still tuning it. You make it sound like "running 7's in a go kart" is easy. Well, if it were, everyone on this board with a dragster would be doing it"

It is easy install a BBC. No the point was 7's in a door car is alot more impressive in my mind vs. in a dragster of anykind. As for the rest of the performance ifs and whens don't go far when it comes to time slips produced. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Points well taken.

It sounds like for the most part you and I are on the same page in this manner.

[455Dave]

I think it's pretty obviuos that Ken isn't ignoring what was done over the years but he would like to see what HE will be up against this year. He has to step it up and also keep the shop running meaning his build and TNT time is somewhat limited.

Anyway my money is on Ken this year. Yesterday I drove up to the shop and threw some cash on the counter and told him to go buy some go fast parts.

[Brian Baker]

When I first tried drag racing in the mid 80's (at Capitol Raceway), they were still using the method OMT mentioned to measure 1/4 mile MPH. They had cones in the center of the track where the lights/reflectors were located (not the orange styrofoam boxes like today). You always stayed in the throttle until you passed the 3rd cone on the top end of the track to get an accurate MPH reading. It's probable that this is where the term "driving it out the back door" came from.