[dgb100]

Hi fellas, been a while since I've been on the board. I got my dad's 70.5 RAIII about one-1/2 years ago, the family has owned it since it was brand new. Needed (needs) a lot of work yet, but I thought I'd run some ideas by y'all.

The engine has been completely rebuilt (oil pump rod snapped and did some horrendous damage) and seated for unleaded gas, got an upgraded crankshaft, fuel pump, oil pump, carb refurbished, and recently readjusted after the engine had a chance to break in a while. It has a 73 block (YT I think) since the original cracked. Installed headers after we discovered one of the manifolds was cracked and super expensive to come up with an original one. This was pretty expensive.

The suspension, springs, breaks, the whole underside of the car, was totally dissassembled, parts replaced, rust issues resolved and welded. This was very expensive. (Unfortunately I don't have the time or space or ablility to do mechanical work)

Right now this thing runs better than new, absolutely sticks to the road, engine running strong, smooth and as responsive.

Now I'm at a crossroads. First, I'm never planning on selling the car, it's really the only thing even remotely resembling a family heirloom. The engine as noted is pretty far from original as far as any collector would be concerned. A "car enthusiast" probably wouldn't be too concerned, but a trailer queen guy would poo-poo it I'm sure. So keep that in mind...

The exterior is in pretty good shape, the only rust throughs are one small 1/8" hole in the hood, and one in the chrome rear bumper (ouch). Trim is a little hazy looking, otherwise pretty solid. Will stick with the original white and blue, love the look, and that's the one area I'm actually capable of dealing with.

I'd like to go with some slightly wider tires. Right now it has 15x7 American racing rims with Kelly Charger tires. I have the original Rally's stored away, all missing their gems. How wide a rim+tire combo will the car take? Any reccomendations? This car handles so well I really would like to maximise that aspect of the car and see about taking it out on SCCA events rather than going the drag route which has never interested me all that much. I've driven several cars from this peroid, Vettes, Mustang GTs, Chargers, Challengers, GTOs, Chevelles and none of them comes close to the handling of the 70TA IMO.

The big problem is the intereor. It's a blue intereor and I'll be dammed if I can find any thing other than black in the repro market. Any help would be appreciated. But I'm thinking of going with a custom interor, just gut the whole thing becuase it's a freaking nightmare. Seats are shot, panels and dash dry rotted and craked, half the belt buckles are cracked off, radio and speaker shot. I'd keep the blue, but probably go for cloth seats, see about some seat belts that wont crush my rib cage if I'm ever in a wreck, and the should belt cuts right across my wife neck, so she won't even ride in the car. Put in nice stereo. Has anyone done this, how easy or hard was it? Any advice?

[weranc55]

Put some rallys on it and put it on ebay. Project cars do real well on ebay.

[dgb100]

It's not going to be sold, ever, if I can help it. But I do want to keep it looking as close to original as I can while upgrading some of the other aspects. Although I was surprised to see that RAIII on Ebay go for $40K! Maybe the TA is finally getting the respect it deserves.

Originally Posted by weranc55

Put some rallys on it and put it on ebay. Project cars do real well on ebay.

[weranc55]

Sorry I misread I thought you wanted to sell the car.

[unruhjonny]

You can get the interior restiched in the original vinyl.
Really, in my opinion that's the only way to go.
If you do decide to go to a custom interior, I'd guess that just about any kind of blue cloth interior would look cheezy very quickly - especially in a '70-73 TA. If you do go cloth, I'd really suggest converting the car to a black interior, because typically black looks the best over time, and takes away much less value than any other colour.
I actually have in my posession some correct blue vinyl for your car - I bought it from a local interior shop for cheap becasue it was leftover from a '70 Firebird they did.
Keep in mind, if you have an upholsterer redo your interior, the labor is exactly the same - it's only the cost of the material that changes - so in theory stiching it in the correct colour vinyl would cost the same as cloth.
You're in the same boat as a fair percentage of 70-73 Firebird owners - I too have to get my ('73) interior redone by a shop, because the fabric pattern & colour was not nearly popular enough for the aftermarket to mass produce.

You didn't mention if anything else on the engine (eg: intake/ heads/ carb/ distributor) was changed out at the time of the rebuild...
Presuming you reused all those components, having a '70 T/A with everything underhood except for headers and a replacement shortblock is not a huge detractor on value.
You could one up yourself by keeping an eye out for a date coded correct '70-400, and if you don't want to have a "wrong code" block in there, you could just machine the front of it (to remove the block code & engine number, as well as remove any corrosion that is typically observed around the water pump passages), that would put you dead even with a replacement block - just please don't pull a "corvette" and attempt to restamp your block - I would never advocate or suggest such a practice.

Replaceing '70 RAIII exhaust manifolds aren't nearly as expensive as a set of headers - so I don't know where you got that from (I had to replace my drivers side one, after repeated "repairs" put it to the point of being unfixable)...
I found one via the classifieds on classical pontiac. for a very good price (I actually bought a set, and sold the one I didn't need to another gentleman).
You can also use any 1968-1969 model year GTO D-port RA manifolds, I cannot recall the differnces in using the early manifolds in a '70 Firebird auto vs stick car... I did run a '68 model year GTO manifold in my Formula for a while (it was a loaner!) - it was definatly tighter than the OE part, but I got it in by removing the starter, and messing with it for a while to figure out how to angle it in just right. (I did not have to disconnect motor mounts and/or raise my engine to get the '68 model year part in place.)

'70 T/A's are definatly gaining in value - so doing the car right would be the only route I would suggest for you.

[dgb100]

I'd love to get a hold of your vinyl if your willing to sell it. Both front seats need redone, the back only have rips along the seems by the back window deck, may or may not be repairable (but I'm thinking not, but there is a lot of useable material left). The biggest problem is finding a blue dash, and blue interior panels. Some of may be restorable, but some has cracked. The back of the seats are pretty horrific too.

You're are correct, if I went with a custom interior black would most likely be the way to go, and black.

On the other hand the carpet is pretty decent as is the center console.

None of the important Ram Air III parts were replaced, they are all there.

The fellow that did everything other than the engine rebuild was a family friend so he charged me wholesale cost for all the parts. At the time the only original RAIII manifold either of us could find was $300 and not in terribly good condition, and at that point I was just ready to get the car back, and I didn't want to take up any more of the guys time since he cut me such a good deal, he only charged me $10/hour labor as well (he is a professional mechanic and restores cars in his spare time. He had an absolutely beautiful 72 Chevelle SS he restored from a rust heap) So I sold the other manifold to some one on the forum and went with the headers. No fancy chrome finish or anything. I think he got Pypes for me at around $250.

I'm not terribly concerned with the block stamp right now, just want to get the car looking and running great. So it runs great, now I just got to get it to look great.

The interior will probably be the toughest challenge. Is there any product out there than can restore dry rotting panels, or at least make it look less horrible?


Thanks for the advice,

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

You can get the interior restiched in the original vinyl.
Really, in my opinion that's the only way to go.
If you do decide to go to a custom interior, I'd guess that just about any kind of blue cloth interior would look cheezy very quickly - especially in a '70-73 TA. If you do go cloth, I'd really suggest converting the car to a black interior, because typically black looks the best over time, and takes away much less value than any other colour.
I actually have in my posession some correct blue vinyl for your car - I bought it from a local interior shop for cheap becasue it was leftover from a '70 Firebird they did.
Keep in mind, if you have an upholsterer redo your interior, the labor is exactly the same - it's only the cost of the material that changes - so in theory stiching it in the correct colour vinyl would cost the same as cloth.
You're in the same boat as a fair percentage of 70-73 Firebird owners - I too have to get my ('73) interior redone by a shop, because the fabric pattern & colour was not nearly popular enough for the aftermarket to mass produce.

You didn't mention if anything else on the engine (eg: intake/ heads/ carb/ distributor) was changed out at the time of the rebuild...
Presuming you reused all those components, having a '70 T/A with everything underhood except for headers and a replacement shortblock is not a huge detractor on value.
You could one up yourself by keeping an eye out for a date coded correct '70-400, and if you don't want to have a "wrong code" block in there, you could just machine the front of it (to remove the block code & engine number, as well as remove any corrosion that is typically observed around the water pump passages), that would put you dead even with a replacement block - just please don't pull a "corvette" and attempt to restamp your block - I would never advocate or suggest such a practice.

Replaceing '70 RAIII exhaust manifolds aren't nearly as expensive as a set of headers - so I don't know where you got that from (I had to replace my drivers side one, after repeated "repairs" put it to the point of being unfixable)...
I found one via the classifieds on classical pontiac. for a very good price (I actually bought a set, and sold the one I didn't need to another gentleman).
You can also use any 1968-1969 model year GTO D-port RA manifolds, I cannot recall the differnces in using the early manifolds in a '70 Firebird auto vs stick car... I did run a '68 model year GTO manifold in my Formula for a while (it was a loaner!) - it was definatly tighter than the OE part, but I got it in by removing the starter, and messing with it for a while to figure out how to angle it in just right. (I did not have to disconnect motor mounts and/or raise my engine to get the '68 model year part in place.)

'70 T/A's are definatly gaining in value - so doing the car right would be the only route I would suggest for you.

[unruhjonny]

you can buy most panels either new through the aftermarket, or in the case of unique parts eBay is the best source.

even the highly sought after sail panels are now being reproduced...

If I were you I wouldn't waste any time buying the "scrap" vinyl I have - go here:
http://www.smsautofabrics.com/

just first figure out on which upholserer you are going to use, and order the ammount of vinyl that they want.

[TJH]

Interior kits are available in all colors- I don't know why exactly you couldn't find them.
As far as thinking the console and carpet look OK- think again. The minute you restore the seats, anything that you haven't touched will look like crap. Plan now to replace the carpet, and at least re-dye the console in the correct color, to match the new seats.
As far as cloth seats, there is a very rare optional fabric insert seat that was available in 1970. They do not make interior kits with the fabric- it's so rare, no manufacturer would ever bother with doing them. But I'd bet that SMS will have the correct cloth for the inserts- just be ready to pay a bunch for the interior re-do. A complete PUI or similar interior kit will run around $350- plan on two to three times that for a one-off job at a local trim shop, and perhaps more.

[dgb100]

What is the best source for interior kits?

Originally Posted by TJH

Interior kits are available in all colors- I don't know why exactly you couldn't find them.
As far as thinking the console and carpet look OK- think again. The minute you restore the seats, anything that you haven't touched will look like crap. Plan now to replace the carpet, and at least re-dye the console in the correct color, to match the new seats.
As far as cloth seats, there is a very rare optional fabric insert seat that was available in 1970. They do not make interior kits with the fabric- it's so rare, no manufacturer would ever bother with doing them. But I'd bet that SMS will have the correct cloth for the inserts- just be ready to pay a bunch for the interior re-do. A complete PUI or similar interior kit will run around $350- plan on two to three times that for a one-off job at a local trim shop, and perhaps more.

[necdb3]

Where do you get a console that looks good? The reproduction ones look terrible. They have a grain to them. I think they are actually made for a Camaro and they pawn them off as fitting both F-bodies.

Dave

[TJH]

At present, PUI is the best manufacturer- although their product is not perfect.
Legendary may be coming out with F-body interiors- but not in the near future.
As for who to buy them from- any Pontiac parts supplier can sell them to you- including our hosts.
I haven't seen the repro consoles, but I would bet that they are simply molded plastic. Can anyone confirm if I'm right? If I am, it's not a Camaro versus Firebird difference- it's just a simple matter of it being the incorrect material. Soft, flexible vinyl generally doesn't look or feel much like molded plastic, particularly that of the vacuum-formed variety.

[dgb100]

The biggest item I need is the blue dash, which is horrible. I got a black dash cover from A1 as a temporary fix, and it doesn't fit very well. Looks like ****, but it looks better than the original.

Danko spoiler I got doesn't fit well either. I rapidly growing skeptical of these after market products.

I guess the best thing to do is sit and wait for the rare original part on Ebay.

[eaglesan13]

I'm pretty sure that the cloth seat option was only available in sandlewood and black in 1970.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by eaglesan13

I'm pretty sure that the cloth seat option was only available in sandlewood and black in 1970.

Chris, yep -- you are correct.

dgb, you don't need a "blue dash" -- good ones don't really exist anyway. Just get a good dash (or have Just Dashes do one for you) and dye it.

[dgb100]

Just Dashes, I'll check it out.
Thanks,

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by necdb3

Where do you get a console that looks good? The reproduction ones look terrible. They have a grain to them. I think they are actually made for a Camaro and they pawn them off as fitting both F-bodies.

Dave

Hmm.. you seem to have some misinformation here, mabey I can further assist.

The vinyl covered center console IS a Firebird part, Chevrolet opted to put it in the Camaros becasue it was a much cheaper to produce item than the rigid plastic console in the early cars... just like the a version of the Firebird rear spoiler (there were multiple ends created in the design studio) was installed on the Camaro...

From what I've been made aware there is currently a very good reproduction console on the market.
The only problem with the vinyl coverd repop console, is the attaching bracket is a plastic version of the camaro braket - swapping the correct metal firebird bracket from a wrecked Firebird console isn't that tough... you just need to be careful that you don't damage the vinyl covering when drilling pilot holes for the new rivet locations.

I believe that there was a thread HERE that gave step by step instruction as to how swap in the correct dash bracket.

Decent consoles are still fairly plentiful, it's just finding one with no cigarette burns that's really tough... I currently have three spare consoles - one stick, the other two are auto - and I know someone who has many more than me.

Back to the OP:

If you decide to find another dash to get recovered, just be sure you find a 1970-1977 model year dash, because the opening for the radio was enlarged in 1978. I believe the manufacture date was often stamped on the reverse of the dash...

[oldbirds]

Just a second to unruhjohnny's comment on the repop Firebird console. Quality is actually very good, with the exception of the plastic mounting bracket as he noted. Also, there is a slight difference in the front of the consoles between the 4-speed and automatic versions (more than just the opening for the shifter), and the repop consolses are technically correct for the 4 speed. Not a major deal and 99% of the people would never notice it. At any rate, don't be afraid of the repop console - its fine.

[Uk7ota]

Are there several versions of the repop console ? I ask this because I was on holiday in Florida last week and took the opportunity to vist NPD at Ocala ( I live in the UK so it was like a trip to Santa's Grotto ) . I was dissapointed with the console they showed me, it felt hard and had to much of a grain to it as mentioned previously.Thinking back it was packed in a plain cardboard box with no markings on it . Do OER manufacture this item.
Thanks,

Colin.

[oldbirds]

I suppose its possible that there are more than one version of the console out there. I got mine about 3-4 years ago, and I'm pretty sure I bought it from Classic Industries in California. As noted, the one I purchased was very good - interior won best in show at a major judged show with the repro console, and I think it would take a real close look to tell it from the original. Tried to find the receipt to tell for sure where I purchased it, but couldn't find it - Classic Industries is my best guess. I suppose its also possible that they no longer make that particular repro, but that would surprise me given the quality of it.

[Uk7ota]

Thanks for the reply oldbirds, I'll take a look at the Classic Industries website.
By the way, thanks for posting the early photos of your 70 TA, a great help to all of us.

Colin.