[tygr1965]

I'm new to this site, and I've noticed all the good advice and help that has been given out and I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with my situation.

I've recently developed a problem with my ignition switch, or so I'm told that's what the problem is.

It's a '65 GTO, with a '68 400/TH400 Auto. Everything is pretty much to stock or equivelent specs (wiring, alternator, ignition etc.) except for a high torque mini starter from MasterPower.

I randomly get no start situations, not even a click. Because of this, I had the starter checked and found out it was bad. It has since been replaced but I still have the same situation. AND when it does crank, every few attempts the starter will not stop cranking, even with the key in the OFF position!!! I have to remove the battery cable to get it to quit cranking.

So, first of all, am I right about the ignition switch being at fault?

Second, WHERE do I find one? This car was originally equipped with AC and therefore it has a 7 prong switch. Every parts source I've checked either doesn't have one, doesn't list a part older than 67, or has only the NON-AC version. I've also been told that this will not work on a car originally equipped with AC. So who do I get an AC equipped 1965 GTO/Lemans/Tempest ignition switch from?

[jfmjr1]

I would check your cables and wiring to the starter for burns or shorts from cracking or melting. Doesn't sound like it is the switch to me. More details, new cables? engine harness condition, chaffing wires somewhere?

HTH

John

[gtofreek]

If the ignition switch was causing it to stay engaged, then it would start cranking again when you install the battery cable. Sounds like the new starter is meshing too deep with the ringgear[flexplate]. If it is meshing too deep, the gear gets bound up and won't retract by itself with the spring pressure in the solenoid. Once it stops cranking though, the starter drive will then retract back and all is fine until you try to start it again. If the engine started, it probably would have kicked the starter drive back out. You may just need a shim or two between the starter and the block. I would try one
.030 shim first and see if that does it. If not, try one more. You shouldn't need more than two.

If you still have a no click situation, that could also be caused by something else besides the ign. switch. Repost if you still have this problem.

[george kujanski]

Agree with freek. Most likely a mechanical bind.

george

[tygr1965]

Positive bat. cable is about 6 months old, Neg. is about 6 years old. Engine harness is also about 6 years old. Dash harness as far as I know has never been replaced. Without unwrapping the harness and inspecting the wires, I didn't notice any burns or melting. I can definitely look into that this weekend.

I currently have two shims between the starter and the block. I can add another to see if it improves. I should be a pro at removing and installing the starter by the time i'm done with this.

As far as the no click situation, it doesn't happen all the time. (Obviously if it was cranking and not releasing, right?) I've had this problem several times over the last 2 or 3 months. I thought it was a dead battery because it started every time I jumped it or recharged the battery. That's why I replaced the battery a couple weeks ago. But it still does it. So I had the starter checked and it was bad, so I replaced it. I still have the problem. It did it right after I installed the new starter up until I crossed the terminals with a screwdriver. Now it cranks, most of the time.

Once in a while it still reacts like the battery is almost dead, but continues to crank normally a few seconds later. Or it goes the complete oposite way and doesn't crank or even make a sound.

So if it's not the shims, but the wiring, where do I start? The dash harness or the engine harness?

[george kujanski]

First, you say you had the starter checked and it was bad, but the problem still exists with the replacement starter.

Obviously, the problem was not the starter so the previous one was not bad, at least not contributing to the main problem.

If ALL of your connections are in good shape, and a good battery, turning the key to the cranking position should at least give you a starter click. If not, either the start circuit is bad, i.e. the key switch, neutral safety switch, wiring, or the starter solenoid is bad.

You can check the circuit by jumping the solenoid terminal to the battery cable at the starter. If it cranks there but not with the key, it 's a circuit problem. You can temporarily add a wire at the starter solenoid terminal and bring it up topside so you can jump it to the battery without crawling under the car.

if it still won't click/crank by jumping the solenoid to the battery, it's a problem in the starter/solenoid.

Did you replace the solenoid with the starter?

Make sure it's not in gear and brakes are on, etc when jumping the starter. You are bypassing any safeties and you can get run over by your own car.

George

[tygr1965]

So, in order to test the circuit, the no click problem needs to exist at the key, right? So I'm going to have to wait until that happens again to test it. I don't know if I can reproduce that this weekend or not. I'll try though.

As for the solenoid, it's built into the starter, so by replacing the starter, the solenoid was also replaced. It's a Master Power #9610 in case you want to see for yourself.

So if jumping the solenoid to the battery works and the key does not, that doesn't determine that it is the switch. All that is saying is it's somewhere between the starter and the switch? Is this correct?

If that's the case, what do I start looking for? Obviously bare or melted wire, but what else? I really don't have the money to replace all the wiring, but I'm not an electrician. I'm very limited in my abilities to find and test for problems. I'm trying to figure out what's the easiest way to fix this, without spending $400 on new wiring.

Thanks for all the help guys. You really know your stuff.

[engineer]

agreed, not the switch. look elsewhere first as noted above.

[george kujanski]

if it's not the starter assy, then you need to check the key switch, neutral safety switch, wiring. The solenoid wire goes thru the bulkhead connector and there could be corrosion there.

You can use a wiring diagram to follow the solenoid circuit and jump each point in the chain to the battery to see where the problem is. I would work back from the starter towards the firewall, jumping the solenoid circuit at each connector, etc. until you find the problem device or connection.

Here's an analogy: Imagine you have a long water hose consisting of many pieces and somewhere there's a plug in the hose. Start with the end furthest from the spigot, unscrew the first section and connect it to the spigot. Do this with each section until you find the section with the plug it it. Same process, costs 0 $.

good luck, let us know.

George

[tygr1965]

Thanks George, I'll try that this weekend. First, I'm going to add a shim to the starter like freek recomended. Then I'll trace the wires as you said.

[gtofreek]

I bet the only time the starter won't crank without a click or anything is when it's hot or warmed up. Never cold. This is a huge problem out here in the desert, and I'll tell you why. For eleven years I worked in an alternator/starter rebuilding shop where we also fixed cars. This problem is huge out here and we saw it all the time in any car that uses a solenoid on the starter without a starter relay. This includes any GM vehicle made before the mid 80's, most German built cars for the same era, many Japanese built cars including Toyota, Nissan, Honda. And many more. The problem is this; a solenoid has two functions. When you apply 12 volts to the "S" terminal on the solenoid, it sets up a very strong magnetic field that "sucks" in a plunger against spring pressure that is attached to a lever that pivots on a pin. The other end of the lever is attached to the starter drive[the gear that engages the flexplate teeth]. As the plunger is "sucked" in, the drive moves out into the Flexplate teeth. Once the drive is engaged with the flexplate teeth, the plunger reaches the end of it's travel in the solenoid and pushes a button which in turn pushes a copper plate against the battery and starter posts on the solenoid, then the starter starts spinning and cranking the engine. Wooohh!
Now that that's over I'll tell you what's happening. It just makes more sense when you understand how all this stuff works together.
Because the solenoid needs to set up a strong magnetic feild to suck in the plunger, it needs a lot of power. A GM solenoid draws about 25 amps when it is cold. When it is hot, the solenoid will draw 35-40 amps. When the solenoid is drawing 35-40 amps the wire at the "S" post[purple] on the solenoid needs to maintain 10 volts or better in order to set up a strong enough magnetic field to suck the plunger in and and make everything work. If the wiring cannot maintain 10 volts, the magnetic field will not be strong enough to suck the plunger in. But when you jump start it or put a battery charger on it, the voltage at the "S" post raises up above 10 volts and the solenoid works. Same when you jump across the solenoid terminals. When the solenoid is cold and only drawing 25 amps, the wiring can maintain 10 volts then and it starts. The problem here is that the factory wired these cars so that all the power the solenoid draws is pulled through the bulk head connector twice, the ignition switch, the neutral safety switch and maybe another plug or two and about 10 feet of wire. Trying to pull 35-40 amps[the worse the connections, the more amperage the solenoid draws] through 10 feet of 35 year old wiring and a bunch of connections is not a good thing. This is why the plug on the back of ignition switchs burn up. I'm sure several of you have experienced this.
The ABSOLUTE best way to fix this problem is to wire a relay into the start circuit. Some may try to argue that the way the factory designed it is just fine. IT IS NOT! Anymore pretty much every car manufacturer is useing starter relays in conjuction with solenoids. They finnally realized the error of their ways. They were not future tellers so they did not realize what would happen 30 years down the road. Now they realize it. So now they do it differently. Pulling all the solenoids power through the switchs is just plain rediculous. There are two ways to wire a relay.
1. The easiest way to do it is to buy a Ford[yeah I know, a dirty four letter word around here, but think about this, how many Fords do you see having this no crank or click starting problem? Zero.] starter relay[it is not a solenoid, however the part store may have it listed that way]. Disconnect the negative battery cable. Always disconnect the neg. cable because then it kills the whole system. If you just disconnect the positive cable, the battery is still live and can be shorted to ground. Mount the relay somewhere between the battery and starter. Hide it if you want. Then take the Purple start wire off the solenoid and relocate it to the "S" terminal on the Ford relay[one of the small steel threaded posts, 10-32 thread if I remember right]. Now run a 10 gauge wire from the positive post of the battery to the Copper terminal on the Ford relay closest to the "S" terminal[install a 14 gauge fusible link at the battery end of this wire, do not use a fuse.]. Now run a 10 gauge wire from the other copper post on the Ford relay[these posts should be 5/16 course or fine thread] to the "S" terminal on the factory solenoid. Solder all the connections for a trouble free installation. Now the solenoid only has to pull power through a few feet of wire and all the connections are bolted tight, not plugged together. Now if it needs 40 amps, it can have 40 amps! Also, by doing this, the only load the switchs have to carry is 3-5 amps that the Ford relay draws. Much easier on the switchs and plugs. You will never have this no click situation again unless the starter or solenoid just plain goes bad.
2. This way is a little more complicated but a much better way to do it.
Mount the same Ford starter relay and remove the purple start wire from the solenoid and connect to the "S" terminal on the Ford relay. Now you will need to buy some new battery cables with the appropriate ends[get at least 2 gauge cables if the battery is still under the hood, heavier if it is in the trunk. Basically, the longer the cable, the heavier it should be. Some may say you need double ought welding cable bu
t if your battery is under the hood, that is a waste of money. You will never need a cable that heavy. 2 gauge is plenty and will carry way more power than your starter will ever draw[which is normally 200-250 amps]. Plus bigger cables makes it much harder to route them. Now that you have cables, you need to connect one of them from the battery positive post to the Copper stud on the Ford relay next to the "S" terminal. You will also have to relocate all the wires that are on the main battery post on the original solenoid to this post and delete the old positive battery cable. Now you need to run a 2 gauge cable from the other copper post on the Ford relay[this should be the only wire on this post] down to the main battery post on the solenoid and run a 10 gauge jumper wire from this main battery post to the "S" post on the solenoid[this wire should only be a couple inchs long] or alot of 460 Fords and Lincolns had a starter with a solenoid on it like a GM and they used a steel strap for jumping these two terminals and it will bolt right on the GM solenoid. Can probably find one at a junk yard if you want a really clean install. Now there will be NO POWER at the solenoid when the starter is not cranking which eliminates the possibility of the cable shorting on the exhaust or block if it gets to close. Also if you need to change the starter you only need to remove the cable from the Ford relay and lower the starter to the ground to remove the cable. Much easier. This is how I wire mine up. Never have a starting problem since!

To diagnos if this is your problem, do this. Temporarily attach a wire from the "S" post on the solenoid and run it up top a little ways from the battery. Attach another wire on the positive post of the battery and run it over by the wire you ran up from the solenoid. Make sure the loose end of each wire is insulated so they don't short on anything while not in use. The reason for this is so when it doesn't start, you can temporarily hook these two wires together to make it crank but you don't want the sparks blowing up the battery. Get and carry with you a 12 volt test light. The next time it wont start, open the hood and use the test light and have someone try to start it. Tell them that if it doesn't start cranking to hold the key in the start position and check the wire you ran up from the solenoid for power while they continue to hold the key to start. If you see the test light light up[make sure the aligator clip is grounded], then the switchs are doing their job. Now while they are still holding the key in the start position, touch the solenoid wire to the wire you ran from the battery[make sure these test wires are at least 12 or 10 gauge] and if the starter starts cranking, then the above fix will fix you right up!

[tygr1965]

Thanks freek!!

I bet you just solved my problem. I had purchased a "remote solenoid kit" from Painless to do just that. I got the advice form a guy in my GTO club. He has a similar setup in his 66 and said it cured all of his start problems as well. I just hadn't installed it yet. I'll get on that tomorrow.

I also connected the 'S' terminal on the starter to a 10 gauge wire and used it to bump the starter when I had the no click situation last, then the starter worked at the switch. So, since it sounds like you've got this thing down to a science, I'm pretty sure that this will solve my problems.

Also, the dash harness is (as far as I'm aware) still the original 42 year old wiring that has been subjected to several years of splices, cuts and who knows what kind of neglect. Because of this, I've purchased a new dash harness. Also because the bulkhead connector on the back of the fuse block has a broken tab that keeps the engine harness connected. I've had a few problems with it coming loose. Once while driving home from college. Let me tell you, having your pride and joy looked over with admiration from friends and having those same friends run into you when the connection wiggles loose and not knowing the problem is very embarrassing and aggravating. Those said friends had to help me push the car into a parking lot where they had lunch and got to witness the car being put on a flatbed.

I haven't had that problem since, but now I'll know, with the new wiring and the remote solenoid kit, I shouldn't have "stranded" situations again.

I'll add the remote kit this weekend and since I wont get the dash harness for at least a week, I'll know if this was the fix, or if the wiring is at fault.

Thanks again to all of you for the help. I'll let you know how it goes.

[tygr1965]

Thanks for all your help guys. I finally got it all fixed, or at least so far. I have driven it around a few times and so far, no problems starting.

I wound up using gtofreek's advice by shimming the starter. It took two additional shims to stop the binding (total of four shims). Also, the remote solenoid kit fixed the hot start problem. I've had it up to operating temp. three times and so far, after shutting it off, it's started right back up multiple times.

So you all were right, it wasn't the ignition switch. I did order a switch for a 64-65 non AC car, but haven't needed to install it yet. I'm going to hold onto it just in case the one that's in the car decides to give out on me.

Thanks again to all of you for your advice.

[gtofreek]

Glad to hear to have no more problems!

[BB1968]

gtofreek, I don't know about the rest of the guys here, but I really appreciate the info on this subject. I know there are a lot of us that don't understand the whole start system. This helps a bunch...BB

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by BB1968

gtofreek, I don't know about the rest of the guys here, but I really appreciate the info on this subject. I know there are a lot of us that don't understand the whole start system. This helps a bunch...BB

Glad I could help. The way I look at things is if you understand how they work, there is nothing you can't figure out when it quits working. So I try to give people an understanding as well as a solution. Lets just say I want to know WHY 2+2=4. Not just be told that 2+2=4!

[Colin_McF]

hey gtofreek,
thanxs for posting the fix for my mystery no start problem-



Colin

[Pontiac Inc.]

where are you guys mounting your (ford) remote solenoid? just curious, plz

[gtofreek]

I have mounted them behind the battery on 67 GTO's and also on top of the inner fender well, behind the fender, so it's out of sight. Watch out for the bolts gettingf in the way of the tires though.

[tygr1965]

I placed mine on top of the inner fender, between the outer fender and battery, behind the high beam head light. Like gtofreak said, watch out for the bolts getting in the way of the tires. I put the bolt through the fender from the tire side to the engine compartment side, then attached the nut.