[ELKHORNAOG7]

What is the elec. used for on the 2004r to put the conv. in lock up or is it used to take the conv. out of lock up, and if I was to hook this up to the brake light switch could I also hook up a toggle switch and use a blocking diode on the brake switch and on the toggle switch so there is no feed back. and these correction kits that they sell for the 2004r do they work so that the trans. would shift right and I would not have to hook up a switch, I just want a trans. that is not going to give me any problems. The trans. is a standard trans. with a stock conv. nothing fancy, I just want to get it right without spending alot of money to get this thing working as funds are just about at a stand still. Thanks---BOB

[thadeal4real]

? theres alot on this but i can say when you give the lockup sil-noid juice thats what it does it locks the converter and yes you can wire it to a manual (toggle your choice) switch hth good luck

[Cliff R]

Absolutely under no circumstances wire it up directly with a toggle switch.

The correct way to set up the TCC in older vehicles is to run the wiring thru the solenoid and ground it on a normally "open" 4th gear pressure switch. This will provide TCC function only after the transmission reaches 4th gear. It will unlock as soon as it comes out of 4th.

Some "kits" will run the voltage thru a brake pedal switch first, which really doesn't do squat unless you are on the brakes and still in 4th gear.

The best deal we've seen is to run the voltage thru a vacuum switch first, hooked up to ported vacuum, then to the solenoid, then grounded on a 4th gear pressure switch.

With this set-up the TCC will only like at light throttle cruise. Any heavy/full throttle, or coasting will unlock the TCC.

Direct wiring overworks the converter, and looking for a toggle switch every time you want TCC function, or come to a stop light, or slow down is just NOT the best deal, there are too many things going on when driving a car these days that require your full attention......Cliff

[ELKHORNAOG7]

Cliff you said to run it thru a vacuum switch. First where would I get one of these vacuum switchs, and do they have to be adj. for the vacuum that is needed to make this system work, I read something jakeshoe also said about using a vacuum switch but I diden't understand how this works, can you tell me everything I would need to do this. And also should I get the correction kit that has the different springs or would I just use the trans. the way it is and leave the springs alone. thanks, BOB

[Cliff R]

I don't know what a "correction kit" is?

I don't use lock up converters in retrofit applications, so don't have a SOS for the vacuum switch.

The last kit I used was from TCI, and it contained a 4th gear pressure switch, LU solenoid, wiring harness, and the vacuum switch. It was adjustable within a small range. It worked fine when we tested it, and provided correct TCC function. You MUST use ported vacuum to the switch, not manifold vacuum. The ported source also needs to be similiar to what is used for distributor vacuum advance, not for EGR function. In other words, the source location MUST be right above the throttle plates at idle, and show full vacuum at part throttle cruising, and zero vacuum when coasting.

I've heard a few folks make negative comments about using a vacuum switch. The one we bought and tested worked fine, but we used a well located ported vacuum source to work the switch.

After working with OD transmissions now since the early 1980's, I don't use or recomend a lock-up torque converter in them for retrofitting into older vehicles. If an efficient converter is used, it's just a better deal all the way around to use a non-LU converter. No wiring, no locking in and out, no lugging the engine, etc. It just shifts 3 times, and downshifts if/as needed depending on throttle position, engine rpm, etc.

Even with all that said it doesn't mean that a TCC can't be used and that it woln't work just fine. I had both set-ups in one of my own vehicles and logged over 35,000 miles on it, testing it both ways. It did OK with a TCC, and OK without one. I did NOT like the TCC on below apprx 45 MPH in 4th gear, ever. It was good to have some torque multiplication in 4th gear when climbing slight grades at highway speeds, vs having to apply enough throttle to get the TCC to unlock and provide the same function. The difference in rpm's at highway speeds was barely noticable, and there wasn't enough detectable difference in fuel economy to even be worth measuring.

The BS we hear and have heard for years about overheating the transmission without TCC function is just that, BS. I didn't even run an auxiliary cooler on my car, just the one in the radiator, and the trans temps were fine under any conditions. Again, the key here is to buy a good converter, not some POS the engine "pushes" thru when you apply some right foot!......Cliff

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Absolutely under no circumstances wire it up directly with a toggle switch.

The correct way to set up the TCC in older vehicles is to run the wiring thru the solenoid and ground it on a normally "open" 4th gear pressure switch. This will provide TCC function only after the transmission reaches 4th gear. It will unlock as soon as it comes out of 4th.

Some "kits" will run the voltage thru a brake pedal switch first, which really doesn't do squat unless you are on the brakes and still in 4th gear.

The best deal we've seen is to run the voltage thru a vacuum switch first, hooked up to ported vacuum, then to the solenoid, then grounded on a 4th gear pressure switch.

With this set-up the TCC will only like at light throttle cruise. Any heavy/full throttle, or coasting will unlock the TCC.

Direct wiring overworks the converter, and looking for a toggle switch every time you want TCC function, or come to a stop light, or slow down is just NOT the best deal, there are too many things going on when driving a car these days that require your full attention......Cliff

I guess my installation was the exception.
67 Tempest Sprint ST300 factory a/c 323 rear

I was tired of the 2 speed so guessed that I could make a th200-4R
work.As of that date no one had retrofitted one.
I used an 87 GN trans and Vette lockup converter.
There were no kits to control the lockup so I fashioned one out of a later model cruise control brake light switch with 2 poles,a lighted toggle switch
and reworked the factory kickdown switch to operate backwards of the way it used to.My system may not be perfect but its worked well since 1988.
The only problem I had was after coming off the expressway I forgot to turn the switch off and when it went into 2 nd gear leaving the stoplight it stalled the motor.
Plans are to someday improve the system but for now it works fine in the semi manual mode.
In 4th gear my lockup will drop RPMs by 400.

[Cliff R]

"The only problem I had was after coming off the expressway I forgot to turn the switch off and when it went into 2 nd gear leaving the stoplight it stalled the motor."

You've done well to only stall the engine once since 1988. I'd have stalled it about a zillion times if I had to remember to flip a switch every single time I came to a stop.

Any type of direct wiring to the TCC requires using a 4th gear pressure switch as a ground. Use a "normally open" switch. Route your direct wiring into the case, to the TCC solenoid, then ground it on the 4th gear pressure switch.

The toggle switch can then be used when you decide you don't want the TCC employed.

The factory set some units up for TCC function in 3rd and 4th, and in a few cases in 2nd as well. For retrofited units, LU in 4th gear only is more than adequate, and less complicated.

Back when I first started installing OD's into older vehicles, I spend considerable time setting them up to use the TCC, and also tested them without the TCC.

There was a company making non-LU converters clear back in the early 1990's, pretty sure they were called Precision or Premier Performance? We got a well built non-LU converter from them and I installed it into the 4L60 in my 67 Impala SS. I had already ran a custom LU unit for about 6 months with the TCC functioning correctly as detailed above.

The non-LU was a better deal everyplace. You could only detect about 100-150 rpm movement of the tach pushing pretty hard on the throttle in 4th gear over about 45mph. The big/heavy Impala enjoyed the torque mulitiplication of the converter in 4th gear at lower speeds climbing steep grades or at higher highway speeds going up long grades, etc. I modified the factory TV deal so I could stay in 4th gear past about 2/3rds throttle. Stock units other than those used in Corvette's will come out of 4th pretty easily. Having a tight converter allowed the trans to stay in 4th gear at highway speeds and still not lug the engine under any circumstances.

There were times with the TCC in use that you had to push hard enough to get the engine vacuum to fall off to unlock the TCC, and other driving situations where having it locked in lugged the engine a bit. Otherwise the car ran fine with a TCC working like it's supposed to.

In any case, the car was an absolute joy to drive without a TCC. We changed converter companies about 10 years ago, and have been having Continental build custom non-LU units for us. They have been used to replace quite a few set-ups that were using LU converters, with zero complaints to date......Cliff

[Cammer-6]

[QUOTE=Cliff R;4053780]"The only problem I had was after coming off the expressway I forgot to turn the switch off and when it went into 2 nd gear leaving the stoplight it stalled the motor."

You've done well to only stall the engine once since 1988. I'd have stalled it about a zillion times if I had to remember to flip a switch every single time I came to a stop.



I only turn it on when I know Im going to be going 55+
At the time mine was built I was told by the builder that the 4th gear port was external and he didnt want to put an external switch on it,as he said he had trouble with external pressure switches leaking.

[myckee]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

......The BS we hear and have heard for years about overheating the transmission without TCC function is just that, BS. I didn't even run an auxiliary cooler on my car, just the one in the radiator, and the trans temps were fine under any conditions. Again, the key here is to buy a good converter, not some POS the engine "pushes" thru when you apply some right foot!......Cliff

It is statements like these which show your lack of understanding of the hydraulics in a 2004r and certainly your "100% failure rate" with 2004Rs is a direct consequence.

There is a reason changed must be made to run a non-lock converter, one of them being the cooler circuit.

[ELKHORNAOG7]

I have a converter for a 350 trans will this converter fit a 2004r

[A.W.Dille]

In my Pontiac powered 85 Grand Prix I have had no problems leaving the TCC unhooked, and it works like a four speed automatic. Just got home from an 800+ mile trip through the mountains and had no issues. All I have ever done was to adjust the TV cable to shift when I want it to, normally in fourth gear by 35-40mph. Myself I feel that the TCC would hinder it with much driving through the mountains the way I do (at least 2-4 trips to Ohio a year) as I feel that that the converter would be constantly locking and unlocking, which I feel in turn may cause damage to the pump or possibly the clutches. But this is just my experience and opinion, maybe I have just been lucky so far.

[Cliff R]

"It is statements like these which show your lack of understanding of the hydraulics in a 2004r and certainly your "100% failure rate" with 2004Rs is a direct consequence."

???? What failure rate, never had any troubles with any of them, and I know what to do to run them with a TCC, or with a non-LU converter as well.....Cliff

[myckee]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

???? What failure rate, never had any troubles with any of them, and I know what to do to run them with a TCC, or with a non-LU converter as well.....Cliff

Here are a few links.

This post:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...21&postcount=8

This post:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&postcount=64

This post:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...0&postcount=42

[ELKHORNAOG7]

Could I run this trans. and not hook up the elec. plug and run it as any other trans. as long as I have the t.c. adj. right a few hundred rpm won't mean that much to me as long as the trans goes thru all 4 gears and the conv. don't stay in multi. stage when in 4th. if not then I will pull this trans out and put my 350 back in until I get all the things I need for this trans. to work right, Thanks---BOB

[Cliff R]

It only takes minutes to set one up for the TCC to work like it's supposed to.

Not a good idea to run a lock-up converter and not have it functioning.

When we set those units up for non-LU, other changes are made inside the transmission.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

myckee, if you are going to follow me around on the Forum(s), and copy the comments I make, at least get your facts straight. IF you go back and read my responses a little closer, you will notice that I didn't build any of those transmissions. They were all owned by my carburetor customers, or friends of mine that post here on the Forums. I haven't touched a 200-4R transmission in at least 10 years, and no plans of doing so anytime soon. To date, I have observed a 100 percent failure rate with the 200-4R's behind high torque Pontiac engines, as mentioned in my responses, but not a single one of those units came from my shop...FWIW.

BTW, it's once again nice to see that someone follows me around on the Forums and sits back and waits for the opportunity to critisize me for posting FACTS about a particular topic. It would just be nice if you got your FACTS straight.

I've been involved with OD transmissions years before the aftermarket offered anything for them. The 200's are whimpy little units, always have been. The life expectancy of a pre-1986 unit with zero mods behind a stout 455 Pontiac engine or turbo Buick V-6 making some real boost is about as long as it took me to type this. Those transmissions have a LOT of places to break. I've seen SERIOUS turbo Buicks kill the very best prepared 200's in less than 10 runs, again, and again, and again....and yes, they were built by up in Northeast Ohio by a shop specializing in them. The good news is that this fact prompted the aftermarket to continue to step up with improved internals, and "builders" to continue to address the hydraulics to keep them alive when hit with big power.

One by one the aftermarket has addressed the "sore" spots with them, and some builders have dove deep into the hydraulics of them to keep the clutch packs and band alive as well. Even with all the good stuff out there, the expense of setting one up and their history doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy when it comes to building/selling them. I continue to avoid them, and don't recomend them to my friends or customers for serious high performance use. No big secret there, just my opinion based on years of working with these things, and customers who have went that direction and thrown TONS of money at those units, and ended up with less than desirable results.

I guess I'll go find a XE cam thread and bash on them for a while!....LOL....Cliff

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

myckee, if you are going to follow me around on the Forum(s), and copy the comments I make, at least get your facts straight. IF you go back and read my responses a little closer, you will notice that I didn't build any of those transmissions. They were all owned by my carburetor customers, or friends of mine that post here on the Forums. I haven't touched a 200-4R transmission in at least 10 years, and no plans of doing so anytime soon. To date, I have observed a 100 percent failure rate with the 200-4R's behind high torque Pontiac engines, as mentioned in my responses, but not a single one of those units came from my shop...FWIW.

BTW, it's once again nice to see that someone follows me around on the Forums and sits back and waits for the opportunity to critisize me for posting FACTS about a particular topic. It would just be nice if you got your FACTS straight.

I've been involved with OD transmissions years before the aftermarket offered anything for them. The 200's are whimpy little units, always have been. The life expectancy of a pre-1986 unit with zero mods behind a stout 455 Pontiac engine or turbo Buick V-6 making some real boost is about as long as it took me to type this. Those transmissions have a LOT of places to break. I've seen SERIOUS turbo Buicks kill the very best prepared 200's in less than 10 runs, again, and again, and again....and yes, they were built by up in Northeast Ohio by a shop specializing in them. The good news is that this fact prompted the aftermarket to continue to step up with improved internals, and "builders" to continue to address the hydraulics to keep them alive when hit with big power.

One by one the aftermarket has addressed the "sore" spots with them, and some builders have dove deep into the hydraulics of them to keep the clutch packs and band alive as well. Even with all the good stuff out there, the expense of setting one up and their history doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy when it comes to building/selling them. I continue to avoid them, and don't recomend them to my friends or customers for serious high performance use. No big secret there, just my opinion based on years of working with these things, and customers who have went that direction and thrown TONS of money at those units, and ended up with less than desirable results.

I guess I'll go find a XE cam thread and bash on them for a while!....LOL....Cliff

Cliff,
Justg because YOU don't know how to build a 200-4R doesn't mean there is a 100% failure rate.
Nobody is putting a stock pre-86 200-4R behind a 455 and expecting it to live. Are you putting stock 700-R4's behind a 455?

Funny how I see all these posts of 100% failure rate yet nobody who is ACTUALLY using one is having that issue. There are at least 5 members here who are having excellent success with the 200-4R. Roadrage David, HWYStar, and others. None of them are having problems, and since you AREN'T building these in your shop, how are you SEEING 100% failure rate. From internet posts?
That's real accurate...
It sounds like you are reporting on something you know little about and are only going off the 1-2 failures you've seen.
If you are actually building transmissions you are seeing some percentage of comebacks. Shyt breaks.

I'm having almost 100% success rate on builds here. I had a band fail recently that was a bad part from the manufacturer, all the lining came loose and was unburnt and looked new.
That has nothing to do with the unit, just a bad part, could have been a Th350 or a 700-r4.

I have no desire to build either the 200-4R or the 700-R4 anymore, we've made the 4L80E our niche but to say one unit has a 100% fauilure rate is absurd.
It points to a complete lack of knowledge on your part.

[jakeshoe]

Cliff,
the more I think about this subject the more I try to understand what axe it is you have to grind.

You obviously have a preference for the 4L60 series trans, and I'm Ok with that even though I prefer the 200-4R, particularly in many Pontiac applications, but when you make absurd statements and outright lies to the enthusiast that frequent this forum, it's disappointing.

100% failure rate, yet you don't build them.
If you are only stating your "FACTS" based on what is posted online or a couple of customers you have, then at least preface your statement with "THE TWo 200-4Rs we've talked to others about have failed"
100% failure rate...
If it fails once and then the builder repaired it and it's living now (as in one of the scenarios you have PM'd me about), isn't that only a 50% failure rate?

Do you need some math lessons as well as transmission building lessons?

Do you seriously not know what a "correction kit" is?
As in a TransGo Shift Kit or Superior Correction kit?
Anyone who's ever rebuilt transmissions should have an idea of what these are.

So the 200-4R customers I have on PY have also had a 100% failure rate. Why don't you enlighten me about that because I'm unaware of any failures?

Next,
Where the hell are all these failed 200-4Rs coming from?
In this post you state they are coming out of NE Ohio, that sounds like Extreme Automatics. I'm sure Lonnie will be interested in hearing that, he has 200-4Rs living in the 9's for hundreds of passes ( do you have ANY OD trans in the 9's yet?), I gave Lonnie a call today about this thread. Is your axe to grind with him?

If these units are coming from Ohio,
why did you tell me that one was built at a "high dollar unit at a shop in Texas" in your last PM?

So are they built in TX or OH?

Which is it?

If you are going to lie about it, at least get your BS straight.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by ELKHORNAOG7

Could I run this trans. and not hook up the elec. plug and run it as any other trans. as long as I have the t.c. adj. right a few hundred rpm won't mean that much to me as long as the trans goes thru all 4 gears and the conv. don't stay in multi. stage when in 4th. if not then I will pull this trans out and put my 350 back in until I get all the things I need for this trans. to work right, Thanks---BOB

I'll wade through the BS to answer your question.

Do not run it without lockup hooked up unless you have done the proper mods to the pump to ensure lube flow in OD with the converter unlocked.
You reduce lube flow in OD considerably when running unlocked. This is OK for short periods of time, but it isn't a good idea for extended highway driving.

[ELKHORNAOG7]

Gentleman I'm sorry this turned into a pissing contest, I'm going to put my 350 back in until I get all the parts for the 200 then I will ask some questions if need be.-----BOB

[Cliff R]

Not really a "pissing contest", it simply appears that several folks have an "axe to grind" with me personally, so I'll try to clear thing up a bit for the rest of the crowd. It will be my final comments on this subject.

I come on these websites to provide useable/accurate information on subjects that I have great experience with, nothing more, nothing less.

As far as the 200-4R's go, I've been involved with this hobby for decades, and have sat back and watched the evolution of the 200 transmission go from barely able to hold up behind an 5 liter Old's to getting hammered with 3.8 Buicks making over 30lbs of boost and running into the 9's.

I've watched folks KILL them again, and again, and again with big torque and good traction. Early on, the torque converts died as quickly as, or even quicker than the transmissions, so the whole deal gets pumped full of ground up torrington bearings right to start with. This is still a transmission failure, BTW. As the aftermarket stepped up with better converters, and improved transmission internals, the durability improved with it. No big secret about that.

Once the hard parts issues, uncovering the pick-up issues, etc, were addressed, those that were serious about getting these units to work with high HP levels went after the hydrauilics. Some, obviously are better at it than others and figured it out. We've been reminded of this numerous times, and I'm wondering if these comments are going to shy away the hobbyist from doing his own unit, even if he annies up for improved internals to do the build? I would certainly like to think that a guy could get a nice used unit, buy all the good stuff, and set it up himself.

The fine line seems to be who does the work and what "level" do they hit you for with their rebuild?

I can tell you for certain, the $669 units out of Kentucky will last about as long as it took me to type this behind a 455 making 600hp and 600ft lbs torque with good set of sticky tires!

The better units built by specialists to claimed power capabilities of 800hp, or even 1000hp do much better. No big secret about that, except that you are going to have to get a second mortgage to afford one.

What the hobbyist should be aware of, is that "warmed over" units without the billet parts, and upgraded internals, correct shift function, where required, etc, are not capable of effectively handling big power.

Stock units also have quite a few hard parts that need to be checked, and upgraded, depending on the year of production. The band and direct clutch are, and always have been a sore spot for these units. I've observed the best prepared units fry the band, break the pin, and toast the direct clutches. I've also observed a number of planetaries get lunched in high HP applications using high milage units as starting points for high performance rebuilds.

Several years ago a couple of friends of mine who post here, went to 200's behind their strong running 455's. I told each of them that they would more than likely have troubles. One assured me that his unit (in Texas) was being built by a guy who specializes in them to at least 800hp. It's been out several times with problems, and we ended up getting him a much more efficient converter for it and going to non-LU. End result is EXCELLENT, and he loves it.

The other friend of mine broke his at least twice (going by memory here). One time was the apply pin for the band, second time somthing that required the case to be replaced. Same deal, end result is fine, and it's working flawlessly and he loves it.

This track history repeats itself with these units. I wasn't one bit surprised they both had troubles (that's a 100 percent failure rate, followed by a 100 percent success rate, if my math is correct, or is it a 200 percent failure rate, followed by a 100 percent success rate???) I guess it really depends on how many time you had to pull it out, and carry it back to the builder, change converters, etc, before you got it to a point where it was holding up fine and you were happy with it?

In any case, pretty obvious from what we've read on this Forum in recent years that these units certainly can can be used in high HP applications, as the parts and knowledge to set them up to live is out there. I've never said any more than that about these units, even if a few folks have taken some of my comments out of context, or just plain can't read English right to start with? Sorry for getting your thread off considerably off track, it never ends with this website, someones ALWAYS lurking around a corner just waiting to pick apart your comments like a black bird picking corn out of cow poop! I'm used to it, and it bothers me not in the least.

Hope this clears things up some, and I certainly hope that you get your TCC hooked up and working likes it's supposed to.....Cliff

PS: I received a phone call to the shop about this topic a couple of days ago. A guy had bought the TCI kit to hook up his TCC. He was confused slightly, and called TCI, the "tech" told him to use manifold vacuum to the vacuum switch, not ported vacuum. So I guess, they don't even know how to correctly set-up their own parts? Manifold vacuum to a "normally open" vacuum switch closes it at idle, and when coasting. It would still work fine at light throttle cruise, but be on during decelleration in 4th gear. Not the best deal for the TCC, it should unlock on decelleration, just like the factory units did.