[gomowgto]

He does have some old pics, maybe 6 or seven, they show when he first got it, then when he wrecked it, then when it was restored the first time, then when it was all rotted out and restored again to look like it does now. none of the original pics from when he first got it are close enough to see the hood badging, we have even got out a jewelers lens to look at them.

[ramair3formula]

Nothing wrong with a 70 ram air 3 judge, I have one. How many regular trans ams out there with sd455 stickers on the shaker?? People change stickers all the time. I can't remember what I did last week. Maybe he put the wrong stickers on 20 something years ago? Sounds like it's been painted twice?

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by gomowgto

Got over to his house this morning and recorded some numbers, block, 9799915 1970, intake manifold, 9799068, cast iron, heads, cast number 12, and the ram air breather element set up only has one heat riser tube on the LH side, ram air IV had two heat risers, one on each side. There is no question that this is a ram air three with the wrong badgeing on the hood. He is going to get the phs so we can see if he badged it wrong or if the dealership or the factory did. Either way as gn4u2c said, it's still a cool car and once we confirm the phs, he will get the correct badges for it to make it right.

Great car. Nothing wrong with a #s RAIII Judge. PHS will not show what decal was on the hood, nor will it show anything that was done at the dealership.

[gomowgto]

Yes, it has been painted twice. The rear first from the original wreck, he put a new gm L rear quarter on it and I think he only painted that area, not the whole car, but years down the road he completely redid the body as all the doors and quarters were rotted out. That is when the car received a complete new paint job and rebadging and striping. I agree with you all that he just mistakenly ordered the wrong badges and put them on. He just seems so sure that it said ram airIV on the hood when he bought it. But as you all also said, I can't remember what I had for dinner last night, how can you remember what happened 20 years ago and after two paint jobs. He is going to order the phs, but someone said that it will not say what badging came on the hood, only what motor and drivetrain etc. that it came with. Either way there is no question that it is a ram air III and I think he will also be ordering some new badges in the near future. Thanks for all the input, and if something new comes up when we get the phs, I will be sure to let you all know. Thanks again to all.

[70ra455]

Well now that mystery is solved ... the original owner ordered the RA4 stickers and put them on the car ... simple - end of story ... great car.

[gomowgto]

Well i'm not quite ready to end this story nor say the mystery is solved. I tend to agree with all of you that someone either intentionally or unintentionally put ram air IV badges on the hood of a ram air III car, the question is who?? The owner swears that it had the IV badges on it when he bought it in 1970. He says he ordered the same badges for the hood after it's last restoration, that were on it before. I talked to him today and he told me he ordered the phs and the window sticker today, should be here in about 10 days, someone on this post said that the phs won't show the badging info, hope that maybe the window sticker will. I also contacted the original dealership, they are still in business here in town, just curious if they kept any kind of records that old, of course no, but he told me an interesting story about false badging. He had a dodge charger on the used lot that had the 5.7 hemi badging on the hood, had the car sold on the phone basically, until the would be purchaser came in and raised the hood. OOPS, no hemi!! The previous owner thought it would be cool to put the hemi badging on his v-6 equipped charger. Just goes to show you that it can and does happen. Hopefully we will get a few more answers when we get the window sticker, if not, the IV stickers are gone regardless.

[70ra455]

No it DOES NOT happen ... your example was of a USED CAR that a stupid (maybe suspect) dealer made a mistake (or got caught.) What you're proposing is that the factory made a mistake AND the original dealer made a mistake by not noticing AND your friend who ordered a Judge with RA3 (didn't pay the substantial RA4 upgrade price so he knew what he was getting ... a RA3 Judge) AND never even knew he didn't have a RA4 all the time the sticker was on the hood originally so he ordered a replacement RA4 sticker???

That's WAY TOO MANY "Ands" ... the car was always a RA3 with a RA3 sticker and it's most likely that your friend (or whoever painted it) put a RA4 sticker on it because 1) it was cool or 2) it was available 3) or the person who put it on didn't know. But your friend KNEW since he was the original owner and the one who ordered a RA3 Judge and paid for a RA3 Judge and didn't pay the extra $400+ dollars for the RA4 Judge ... and if NOTHING ELSE someone driving around during the day would have pointed out the discrepancy.

Another tired story ... IMO.

[muscle_collector]

there was a guy here in town who ordered a 70 judge with the ra4, but got a ra3 with ra4 decals. i tried to buy the car for years but he wouldnt sell it. he had all the original order forms , sales sheets etc. where the dealer sold him a ra4 car. i took the pontiac service manual and lots of papers to show him that he got ripped off. this was back in the late 70's. he finally came to grip with the fact that it was a ra3 and offered to sell it to me this was in the late 80's. at the time a good friend was looking for a really nice judge and i let him buy it. he restored it and took it to poci convention and did really well with it. he then sold it. someone on here might own it now. it was vedero green, vinyl top automatic car.

[70ra455]

but this person didn't pay for the RA4 so he didn't get ripped off. And from the 70's on he was "informed" that he was ripped off. Whereas the car in question ... no one ever told him he didn't have a RA4 for 40 years?? Nah ... not buying it.

[70Steve]

There was a feature in HPP some time ago about a one owner 1970 GTO.
RAIV, but delivered with just RAM AIR on the hood.

That's a much better deal than the one muscle collector mentions....talk about ripped off! I wonder where the mistake was made?

[goatnut]

Originally Posted by 70Steve

There was a feature in HPP some time ago about a one owner 1970 GTO.
RAIV, but delivered with just RAM AIR on the hood.

That's a much better deal than the one muscle collector mentions....talk about ripped off! I wonder where the mistake was made?

Probably after a lunch break with a couple of cold ones and some weed. lol!

[Garage Goat]

Originally Posted by goatnut

Probably after a lunch break with a couple of cold ones and some weed. lol!

Yup I agree with that big time, Also could the factory have made a mistake? It does happen from time to time.

[gomowgto]

70ra455, if you read my posts a little better than you obviously have, nowhere in them did I ever say that he ORDERED this car, he bought it right off the lot. He had two to choose from and he chose this one, so he didn't CHEAP OUT!And as for it never happening, well you know what they say, never say never, cos muscle collector has posted a similar case, maybe you think he's wrong too?? I have no reason to not believe what he is telling me. Why would he of done this intentionally and then ask me to help him find out the truth. You have no right to accuse him of doing this on purpose. You don't even know him. He is 60 yrs old and bought the car when he was 20. He says it had the ra4 stickers on it when he bought it and I have no reason to think he is lying. At the time he probably was glad to have a steering wheel in his hand and not a gun. All we ever wanted to know was if anyone has ever had this happen, and thank you muscle car for answering our question, YES IT CAN HAPPEN ra455!!! And by the way if you think this is another tired story, stop responding to it!!

[swens421HO]

AMEN!!!

Post made by folks like 70ra455 make this hobby no fun-some people just enjoy destroying someones possible good event or luck in life. We have all seen it in life...now we see it here. I enjoy reading stories like this...even if the end result is not what we are all hoping for!

[gomowgto]

Thank you swen, that is exactly right, I came to the judge sight for help and information, not to be treated like I was stupid or or that I had a friend that was lying to me. This forum is for us pontiac owners to help each other not to judge them or give them crap. I know a several cases with cars coming out of the factory with mistakes being made and not being discovered until now. Ever heard of the old saying not to buy a car built on monday or friday, line workers being hung over on monday or in a hurry to get out and to the bar on friday?? people make mistakes. This guy has always known that there was a question about his motor cos he told me that people told him in the past that he didn't have a ra4 cos he had a cast iron intake manifold. He never said he "got ripped off" he really doesn't care, he just is curious where the mistake happened. Goatman, garagegoat goatnut and 70 steve, thank you too. There was a story on the news just recently about some line workers that were drinking on their lunch break then returning to work. Don't anyone tell me that back in 1970 that someone couldn't have reached into the wrong bin and grabbed the wrong stickers for this car, I am not buying that! Anyway, enough ranting, when mike gets the window sticker and hopefully it will tell us something, I will post it. Thank you all for yourhelp and input, and as for the negative responses, and you know who you are, well good luck in life.

[KenD]

Interesting story!!! Every car has a history, and these forums are a great avenue to learn. I am new to the forum, I do have a Judge, proudly RA 111. I ask for assistance and I have been lucky to have helpful readers lend a written hand. Smart man for buying a Judge and holding on to it. I do know Pontiac (RIP), has made errors. I have learned tons, but an obvious one, in their own new car pamphlet shows a Judge, with a Judge grill not blackened out as they correctly should be. A wrong motor would be far fetched, but mistakes do happen, and checks and balances do not catch everything. Best of luck, and keep posting stories. Ken D

[richard sargent]

A common practice in car dealers is too add cheap upgrades to give the car a higher perceived value. One of the more common practices is add stripes to a stripped out model like a white pick up.

Dealer had two, maybe this was one in inventory the longest. Doll it up with ram air iv stickers, real easy to remove the factory stickers on the hood.

I have a one owner a 65 GP 421 ho car says Bonneville on the dash over the glove box. Never been apart too hard to change no reason too, unless the original was destroyed but you can look up under the dash all intact, no wrenches ever turned a bolt, the insulation is all there.

Mistakes were made at the factory, but this was a dealer installed to sell a car. Maybe factory, but due to ease of changing probally not IMHO

My two 69 judge's raiv came with only ram air on the hood, feb and april built fremont cars, but this was correct at the time, been dicussed before on this board.

[1969 Ram Air]

Mistakes were made at the factory, so it's not impossible for a ram air IV sticker to end up on a ram air III car. But in the end, it's a ram air III car, sticker or not and it really doesn't matter who applied the sticker, the factory, the dealer or an individual.

[MorphWS6]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to order the PHS on it and call it a day? If the PHS shows the car was a RAIV yet the engine in the car is somehow a numbers matching RAIII, I'd think there's something special with that car. If the PHS shows RAIII, well then you know the car either had RAIV decals added at the dealership or the owner was mistaken about what he thought he remembered being on the car.

[grrr421]

would suck to get phs and find out it was a ram air 4 and during the repair the heads and intake were swapped by a repair shop