[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by slowbird

With all this talk about accuracy getting the cam degreed in just right, anyone think about how much the cam twist due to spinning a 60-80lb oil pump off the back of it? What does that due to the cam timing events? Like I said earlier we're splitting hairs here. The hole process is filled with accuracy issues once that engine fires up in my opinion.

Other engine builder have been aware of the issues that you mention (with the camshaft) (Jenkins and others) for years (1970s) and went to Dry Sump engines to help with that deal.

Pontiac guys have only recently stepped up (in last 5 years on a basic engine design created in the early 1950s) to actual race camshafts with big lift (1" numbers vs the Ram Air IV cam mentality.

So like Bill C says, step up and get a proper diameter cam or as I say "stay on the porch and complain about how the details don't matter".

Tom Vaught

[gearbanger]

I have seen alot of guys who race or who are building an engine that has to appear "correct" so they are using intakes, and heads and other parts that are not "the best". But that doesnt mean you need to half way do everything else. If you shoot for perfect on everything else and then live with the deficiencies of the old stock appearing intake and heads that you have to use, you still are going to perform better than everyone elses "stock appearing" deal. I guess what I am saying is this, Just because every part you are using hasnt been perfected and tuned perfectly for the specific build, doesnt mean all is for nothing. Every specific task in a build that is done as close to perfectly as possible, will benefit the build, no matter how slight or unmeasureable the performance gain.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by gearbanger

I have seen alot of guys who race or who are building an engine that has to appear "correct" so they are using intakes, and heads and other parts that are not "the best". But that doesnt mean you need to half way do everything else. If you shoot for perfect on everything else and then live with the deficiencies of the old stock appearing intake and heads that you have to use, you still are going to perform better than everyone elses "stock appearing" deal. I guess what I am saying is this, Just because every part you are using hasnt been perfected and tuned perfectly for the specific build, doesnt mean all is for nothing. Every specific task in a build that is done as close to perfectly as possible, will benefit the build, no matter how slight or unmeasureable the performance gain.

Every Hobby/ Sport has levels. Golf, Tennis, Hockey, Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc. America likes to compete. Maybe the later generations get that deal from their parents of the 50-60s. "Soccer Moms" haul their kids to Little League games, to Track meets, to Hockey practice, whatever. So everyone has learned "to compete" and upping their "personal best" batting average, shots on goal, triple doubles, and even lowering their elapsed times. You don't see car clubs much anymore, that was a 50s/60s deal where no one really had any money.

So basically, gearbanger, I agree with you that yes, even though it may not be "perfect" you should at least try to make it that way with-in your physical and financial capability. Look at Marcella and his personal stuff. All of it is well thought out, and is as good as he can make it personally. A lot of personal pride there. Only thing that he really needs is track time and refining his assembled parts.

So if you agree, that "I can't make it perfect and it is what it is", then you have already lost in my book. There are different levels of execution of a task too. I consider Marcella to be a Master on the execution side of the game. Maybe not quite there on the Track Time or the Tune-up but he has the execution side of the game down cold.

If there were more guys like Marcella or Twin Turbo Bill out there pushing the limit of their skills we as a group would be a lot farther down the road on how fast a Pontiac can really go down the track, be it a True Street Car Guy, a Week-end Warrior, a local Class Racer, or a "No Time" 12th Street Bad Mutha.

JMO

Tom Vaught

[cfmcnc]

Allpontiac Grand Am .977 net lift on intake after lash,bend,and flex.Next engine will be 1.040 NET lift.Bill C.

[Tom Vaught]

Bill, ever look at the cam bore hole in the latest Ford Pro Stock Engine?

Or the Valve "clocking" vs Rod centerline in the combustion chamber?

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=143485

Tom Vaught

[400 plus]

Guys coming over in the next half hour to degree my cam 4 degrees advanced. Sure hope we get it right. Alot of info to digest.

[Tom Vaught]

Another picture of the block: Cam hole looks bigger than the main bore hole, LOL!

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=11447

Tom Vaught

Yes, Racers have been aware of the wet noodle camshaft deal for a looonnnng time, Brian.

[Tom Vaught]

If the guys have done it a few times and are patient, you personally can learn a lot about the process. Good luck with that deal. Post up your findings.

Tom Vaught

[400 plus]

OK we used the stop. Turned it CW then CCW and split it. Used a dial indicator to find .050 Now I see what your talking about LOL Also set the valve lash on a solid roller for the 1st time. Lot easier with the vally pan off

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by 400 plus

OK we used the stop. Turned it CW then CCW and split it. Used a dial indicator to find .050 Now I see what your talking about LOL Also set the valve lash on a solid roller for the 1st time. Lot easier with the vally pan off

Bill,

Good job, you've had the heads in your possession for less than a week and they are on the motor!

Where did you end up putting the cam?

Looks like you will be ready when the weather turns.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[400 plus]

4 degrees advanced

[gearbanger]

Was the cam ground that way? Were you able to go dot to dot or did you advance the cam with a key or a multi position timing set?

[400 plus]

Multi postion timing set. Heres the cam card: http://s44.beta.photobucket.com/user...jpgx2.jpg.html

[Matt Meaney]

so, the intake is ground 4 degrees advanced. did you set it at the prescribed 106 or did you advance it four degrees from that, to 102?

[XSIVPWR]

Same cam I have in my 474, in on a 106. Worked great.

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Every Hobby/ Sport has levels. Golf, Tennis, Hockey, Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc. America likes to compete. Maybe the later generations get that deal from their parents of the 50-60s. "Soccer Moms" haul their kids to Little League games, to Track meets, to Hockey practice, whatever. So everyone has learned "to compete" and upping their "personal best" batting average, shots on goal, triple doubles, and even lowering their elapsed times. You don't see car clubs much anymore, that was a 50s/60s deal where no one really had any money.

So basically, gearbanger, I agree with you that yes, even though it may not be "perfect" you should at least try to make it that way with-in your physical and financial capability. Look at Marcella and his personal stuff. All of it is well thought out, and is as good as he can make it personally. A lot of personal pride there. Only thing that he really needs is track time and refining his assembled parts.

So if you agree, that "I can't make it perfect and it is what it is", then you have already lost in my book. There are different levels of execution of a task too. I consider Marcella to be a Master on the execution side of the game. Maybe not quite there on the Track Time or the Tune-up but he has the execution side of the game down cold.

If there were more guys like Marcella or Twin Turbo Bill out there pushing the limit of their skills we as a group would be a lot farther down the road on how fast a Pontiac can really go down the track, be it a True Street Car Guy, a Week-end Warrior, a local Class Racer, or a "No Time" 12th Street Bad Mutha.

JMO

Tom Vaught

... why thank you Tom, i appreciate that ...

[cfmcnc]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Bill, ever look at the cam bore hole in the latest Ford Pro Stock Engine?

Or the Valve "clocking" vs Rod centerline in the combustion chamber?

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=143485

Tom Vaught

Tom that block I believe is machined for 70mm roller bearings.Our sources have a lot larger cam barrell 78-80mm with babbitt bearings or DLC coated cam journals and no bearings or the new clamshell bearing.Bill C.

[Old Man Taylor]

Originally Posted by 400 plus

Multi postion timing set. Heres the cam card: http://s44.beta.photobucket.com/user...jpgx2.jpg.html

I ran that same cam in the first version of my 482. It really liked it.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by cfmcnc

Tom that block I believe is machined for 70mm roller bearings.Our sources have a lot larger cam barrell 78-80mm with babbitt bearings or DLC coated cam journals and no bearings or the new clamshell bearing.Bill C.

Bill, anything to put more rigidity into the stick (with less twist) is a good thing.
That being said, Bill, comparing a 70 mm 5 journal Pontiac camshaft support system to a 9 journal 70 mm Ford Pro Stock support system might give people the wrong idea.

You would need to up the stick journal to come close to the same rigidity. Ideal system would be to mod the block for a raised cam tunnel with the 9 journal cam bearing system as the large sticks are all custom anyway.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 400 plus

OK we used the stop. Turned it CW then CCW and split it. Used a dial indicator to find .050 Now I see what your talking about LOL Also set the valve lash on a solid roller for the 1st time. Lot easier with the vally pan off

Watching it done one time is worth 10,000 words on how someone thinks it is supposed to be done.

The piston stop is just one basic part of the process. If the process is flawed then the best dial indicator means nothing. Did setting the camshaft where the camshaft designer wanted it to be give you more power? Who knows, but at least you tried to get that part of the equation the best that you could make it.

Tom Vaught