[BLKBRD]

Hope you guys can help me with this one. I'm asking because of the recent Judge (supposedly) sale at Mecum for $27k. I've got a '69 Judge that is nearly identical to the one at Mecum, except that it doesn't look quite as good. I've currently got it staged for a mild freshening up before I let it go, but I'm wondering if it will be worth the investment. I'm basically just hoping to break even, which I don't think I can do with it in it's current condition. At any rate, it doesn't have the original RA III engine or M-20 trans. I've got a complete date code correct WS engine with service replacement carb that will be rebuilt in the near future. I can't remember what year the tranny is, but I beleive that it's a '68 Chevy. I believe that the 3.55:1 heavy duty rear is original. It's CR with a white bucket interior, no console, gauges, hood tach, AM Radio, 8-track, PS (not from factory), PB. Approx. 42k original mile Southern California car. The interior vinyl is presentable, but not perfect. The dash, carpet, headliner, and package tray are very good. The trunk and floor pans appear to be solid. There is glass/Bondo work on the rear quarter wheel lips. I beleive that the lips were cut off to accomodate larger tires, as the car was drag raced at some point in it's life. The rest of the sheetmetal appears fairly solid. The original frame took a major hit under the front skid plate, so I'm planning top replace it with a clean '69 GTO frame that I have with no VIN. The replacement frame will be blasted and painted. The suspension will be completely redone, and the paint will be stripped, aligned, and repainted. I'm not planning to do anything to the bottom of the car, as it was undercoated shortly before I purchased it. I don't plan to perform any major metal repair, so if it can't be done easily with metal, it will be done with Bondo. I was thinking a Judge completed such as my car would be might be worth somewhere in the $30k to $35k range, but I'm not so sure anymore. What do you guys think?

[bigborehunter]

Hang in there, someone qualified will chime in soon.
Just curious, did you ever get a set of PHS documents on your car?
Will help when it comes time to sell either as is or when finished.

[getmygoat]

OK, I'll chime in... first, I would generally question the idea that you are going to do a "freshing up" that is going to increase the value of the car more than the cost of doing it. Assuming you are doing a lot of work yourself, its still difficult to increase value of a non-#'s car, and your time is worth something.

A second thought - A #'s matching judge that has not had a professional quality frame off restoration might be worth $40k in today's market in very nice driver/ #2 condition to the right buyer - but it seems to sell such a car in a couple weeks would require a price around $35k.

Now discount for a non-numbers car that's been hit with frame damage.

Its a tough market - I'm thinking high $20's

[The Boss]

My feeling has always been work not done properly does not add value to a car, it detracts. If you're not planning on doing the body work properly, don't bother putting paint on it that someone else will just need to take off again.

If the car runs/drives on it's own clean it up as best possible and sell it the way it is.

[BLKBRD]

The guy who will be doing the body work is "renting" a condo from me. He'll actually be doing the work in exchange for paying rent. We've been doing that with another one of my cars, and it's been working out very well. I would essentially just be paying for materials. It's a good deal for me, because with the economy being what it is, I've been unable to rent the condo, so in a sense, the condo is now generating an income, but I don't have to claim it as such tax wise. Once we get the car stripped, I'll make the final call as to whether or not we replace metal, or go the cheaper route. I would estimate that the car is a 3 as it sits. I do have the PHS, and everything checks out. The main reason I asked on a price is that the guy doing the work said that he'd be willing to take it to the next level out of his time, in exchange for whatever we could get out of the car above what I'm looking to get out of it. I'd be happy to break even, which would be about $27k, but I wanted to make sure that he didn't do a lot of extra work and get nothing out of it. Appreciate the info guys.

[The Boss]

Give him an incentive, but not everything over a given price. Tell him to do the best job and you'll split every dollar beyond XXXXX with him. But if you're going that route, I would want to deduct the additional materials like body panels, trim, gaskets etc from the profit number as well. If you're partners on it he can't expect you to eat all the materials.

[Judge273]

I guess the questions today is what helps the value of a Judge today?

Before it was get those date coded items under the hood, and it will be correct worth the same as a numbers car. Now is that true?

Today a numbers car is still holding value even with sr carbs?

Original rustfree sheetmetal still holds value and is a value adder?

Original paint is best when it has its OEM drivetrain otherwise not a survivor?

Original paint is still best to show buyer that no hidden bondo or replaced panels?

Solid frame is better than a bent original. But, does it help value?

Nicely professionally restored Judges with receipts are getting 70K-100K?

[Judge273]

I looked at this one and said nice 69 Judge and hard great pedigree with numbers matching in write up. But, a few under the hood things are not correct, and other flaws on inside and out per the forum guys. Still got 100K. Times have changed???

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...n=1013&aid=466

[bigborehunter]

I'll add something else to think about. The latest issue of Muscle Car Review is dedicated to beaters, rats ( sic) and relic cars.
I like the idea but feel the staff over reached a bit with their examples.
The beater Superbird article stretches credibility to extremes with the idea of a siezed engine broken loose over a week and then firing up without smoking or running issues.
Have real trouble swallowing that..
The point of bringing this up at all is, you have some leeway in how far you want to take it AND at what pace. Say for instance, you'd like to get a date and suffix code correct engine but the money isn't there yet. Wait, stay in contact with members. meanwhile work with what is there and do a good job. The same goes for any other big ticket items you need. If this rat or beater muscle car trend grabs hold, you may actually do well with it.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by Judge273

I looked at this one and said nice 69 Judge and hard great pedigree with numbers matching in write up. But, a few under the hood things are not correct, and other flaws on inside and out per the forum guys. Still got 100K. Times have changed???

There are several items under the hood, but they can be corrected, and maybe some other items. I think the key to the high price is quoted below because a 4-speed Judge with its original drivetrain is hard to find. I'll bet that less than 10% of the 4-speed 69 Judges can claim this (if it is even true of this one--and maybe the carb is correct but not original):

"It features a matching numbers L74 400cid Ram Air engine with original matching numbers M20 4-speed transmission and original Hurst Shifter. Factory correct Rochester Quadrajet 4 barrel carburetor."

[weranc55]

Originally Posted by bigborehunter

I'll add something else to think about. The latest issue of Muscle Car Review is dedicated to beaters, rats ( sic) and relic cars.
I like the idea but feel the staff over reached a bit with their examples.
The beater Superbird article stretches credibility to extremes with the idea of a siezed engine broken loose over a week and then firing up without smoking or running issues.
Have real trouble swallowing that..
The point of bringing this up at all is, you have some leeway in how far you want to take it AND at what pace. Say for instance, you'd like to get a date and suffix code correct engine but the money isn't there yet. Wait, stay in contact with members. meanwhile work with what is there and do a good job. The same goes for any other big ticket items you need. If this rat or beater muscle car trend grabs hold, you may actually do well with it.

The bird is owned by a buddy of mine and the story is true about the motor. I think thats a one out of 100 on that one. Even his mechanic couldnt believe it. I bought a 69Ta years ago that had not run since the 80's. It did turn over however. Anyway we pulled the valve covers just to check it out and saw that it had a broken pushrod. We swapped that out found the pieces to the old pushrod primed the motor and it fired up with a new carb and some gas down it. I sold the car and with a tune up the motor runs great.

[Judge273]

Wow times have changed these WIW topics use to rule the Judge page....Now its doesn't get much of a buzz.

[ponjohn]

I agree, I would not touch it and place it for sale as it is with the honest description you gave us.

I think you'll spend a min of 5k doing the basic cleaning up you propose.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Judge273

Wow times have changed these WIW topics use to rule the Judge page....Now its doesn't get much of a buzz.

I was thinking the same thing.

[69 DAYTONA]

Originally Posted by weranc55

The bird is owned by a buddy of mine and the story is true about the motor. I think thats a one out of 100 on that one. Even his mechanic couldnt believe it. I bought a 69Ta years ago that had not run since the 80's. It did turn over however. Anyway we pulled the valve covers just to check it out and saw that it had a broken pushrod. We swapped that out found the pieces to the old pushrod primed the motor and it fired up with a new carb and some gas down it. I sold the car and with a tune up the motor runs great.

...a couple of years ago I purchased this 99.9% original Judge from the original lady owner, it had been parked in her garage for 37 years(1972-2009) ...a tune up, new gas etc and it started right up, purrs like a kitten and drives like a 41K mile GTO should...the car is a 4-spd, PHS correct, numbers matching correct everywhere

...the whats it worth question, I paid $25K for this Judge

[2manyponchos]

Originally Posted by 69 DAYTONA

...the whats it worth question, I paid $25K for this Judge

...and you stole it in my humble opinion! Hell of a deal!

[69 DAYTONA]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

...and you stole it in my humble opinion! Hell of a deal!

...I thought it was a fair price...many told me I paid too much

[GTOnly70]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

I agree, I would not touch it and place it for sale as it is with the honest description you gave us.

I think you'll spend a min of 5k doing the basic cleaning up you propose.

Agree 100%. Car as described is a money losing proposition. Every dollar you invest from this point on will return about 30 cents. Dump it now and cut your losses.

[bigborehunter]

Daytona, I congratulate you on your success find. Interesting to know that two long term storage engines were revived without issues. Maybe some of this has to do with bore & ring condition prior to start up.

All I can say is if the WIW Judge were my car in the condition as described by owner, I would just get it mobile and safely running at present and wait until the market improves before tearing into it. If it's one you want to keep, anything goes. If your plan was to move it down the road, I'd pick another one that's complete.

[jimmy daniel]

As you have all seen on here, I just had a 69 Judge finished after 4 years of a nut and bolt rotisserie frame off restoration. It's never been driven since the restoration and after running it 3 times on eBay, my best bid was 35k. I have receipts and pictures in two large books totaling 80k not counting all the hard work, sweat and parts chasing. Times have changed from when I started