[gtoformula]

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time so catching up a bit. I drove my 1976 Firebird Formula 400 to Cruisin the Coast a week ago and realized that I needed another gear. Just purchased a 2004R trans that came out of a 1987 Monte Carlo SS with only 70,000 miles. The car was stripped in the 1990's and it's been sitting in a storage unit ever since. It still has the TV cable and trans cooler lines installed and the torque converter has been on it the entire time. They even routed the cooler lines together so no debris could get into the lines.
Looking for some recommendations on how I should go about this install. I wrote a very long article regarding installation of a 700R4 in my 1970 GTO, but going a different route this time. The Formula is a very clean, 84,000 mile car and is mostly stock. I scrapped the stock cam and went to something around a RA2 spec. Also replaced the 6x-4 heads with 6x-8 heads, but other than that it is stock. It's a cruiser, not a bruiser so I don't need heavy duty mods for the trans. I'm considering just sticking it in the way it sits. I'd replace the oil pump and tail shaft seals, drop the pan to replace filter/gasket and maybe install one of those TCI lock up converter kits. Will the MC torque converter work with my set up? Anyone have any other (reasonable) ideas regarding what I might do for the installation? I don't want, or feel the need, to go through this trans updating it with high performance parts. It is a CZ code Monte Carlo SS trans and I don't race the car or run it hard. I just want to cruise on the highway at a reasonable RPM. Whatcha got for suggestions?

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by gtoformula

I haven't been to this forum in quite some time so catching up a bit. I drove my 1976 Firebird Formula 400 to Cruisin the Coast a week ago and realized that I needed another gear. Just purchased a 2004R trans that came out of a 1987 Monte Carlo SS with only 70,000 miles. The car was stripped in the 1990's and it's been sitting in a storage unit ever since. It still has the TV cable and trans cooler lines installed and the torque converter has been on it the entire time. They even routed the cooler lines together so no debris could get into the lines.
Looking for some recommendations on how I should go about this install. I wrote a very long article regarding installation of a 700R4 in my 1970 GTO, but going a different route this time. The Formula is a very clean, 84,000 mile car and is mostly stock. I scrapped the stock cam and went to something around a RA2 spec. Also replaced the 6x-4 heads with 6x-8 heads, but other than that it is stock. It's a cruiser, not a bruiser so I don't need heavy duty mods for the trans. I'm considering just sticking it in the way it sits. I'd replace the oil pump and tail shaft seals, drop the pan to replace filter/gasket and maybe install one of those TCI lock up converter kits. Will the MC torque converter work with my set up? Anyone have any other (reasonable) ideas regarding what I might do for the installation? I don't want, or feel the need, to go through this trans updating it with high performance parts. It is a CZ code Monte Carlo SS trans and I don't race the car or run it hard. I just want to cruise on the highway at a reasonable RPM. Whatcha got for suggestions?

You are not going to want to here this but from what I understand this transmission will not live long at all. The Monte Carlo SS in the mid eighties only had 185HP if I remember correctly.
JakeShoe (member here) has a Transmission business http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-4R.html that specializes in these. His base model, for up to 300HP, requires many modifications to live. I told him that I wanted one for strictly street duty and he informed me that it will die driving like a granny, WOT was not the issue.
I know you said you wont modify it so this is just a heads up. Good luck.

Also check out his Tech section: http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-...uild_Tech.html

[pont3]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

You are not going to want to here this but from what I understand this transmission will not live long at all. The Monte Carlo SS in the mid eighties only had 185HP if I remember correctly.
JakeShoe (member here) has a Transmission business http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-4R.html that specializes in these. His base model, for up to 300HP, requires many modifications to live. I told him that I wanted one for strictly street duty and he informed me that it will die driving like a granny, WOT was not the issue.
I know you said you wont modify it so this is just a heads up. Good luck.

Also check out his Tech section: http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-...uild_Tech.html

Then PLEASE, explain to ME, how the one I have behind a 455 in my '71 Lemans has lived through nearly three years and over 40k daily driving miles. I don't drive my car particularly hard, but I don't baby it, either. I'm convinced that a properly set-up 2004r will live just fine for what the op has posted as his intentional use.

Also, I don't use lock-up, don't need it. Just use a good auxillary cooler to keep the trans temps down and you'll be just fine. My Lemans has a 2.93 posi rear with 235-60-15 tires and cruises at 1700 rpm at 70 mph and about 2100 at 80. PERFECTLY satisfied with the 2004r.

PS, I paid seventy five dollars for the trans at u-pull it and had AAMCO rebuild and install it. They gave me a 1 year warranty despite the different application and I've had no problems with it to date. I have another one awaiting installation into my '72 GTO.

Personally, I think most of the failures are due to incorrect setting of the TV cable, and the mis-matching of intakes, throttle angles, carb heights, and other things that affect the geometry of the throttle (Tv) cable.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by pont3

Then PLEASE, explain to ME, how the one I have behind a 455 in my '71 Lemans has lived through nearly three years and over 40k daily driving miles. I don't drive my car particularly hard, but I don't baby it, either. I'm convinced that a properly set-up 2004r will live just fine for what the op has posted as his intentional use.

Also, I don't use lock-up, don't need it. Just use a good auxillary cooler to keep the trans temps down and you'll be just fine. My Lemans has a 2.93 posi rear with 235-60-15 tires and cruises at 1700 rpm at 70 mph and about 2100 at 80. PERFECTLY satisfied with the 2004r.

PS, I paid seventy five dollars for the trans at u-pull it and had AAMCO rebuild and install it. They gave me a 1 year warranty despite the different application and I've had no problems with it to date. I have another one awaiting installation into my '72 GTO.

Personally, I think most of the failures are due to incorrect setting of the TV cable, and the mis-matching of intakes, throttle angles, carb heights, and other things that affect the geometry of the throttle (Tv) cable.

I never said that a 2004R won't live. I completely agree that a properly BUILT one will damn sure live a long happy life! I also agree that TV set up is paramount! The OP said he was just installing what came out of the SS. That will not likely live going by what Jake told me. He is in the transmission business not me. Read my post again.

[pont3]

PSS, I don't drive like granny, and my 2004r has NOT died.

[Keith Seymore]

The 200-4R also came in the Buick Grand National and can be beefed up to handle 1000 HP.

I don't think the original poster will have any problems given his intended usage.

K

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

You are not going to want to here this but from what I understand this transmission will not live long at all. The Monte Carlo SS in the mid eighties only had 185HP if I remember correctly.
JakeShoe (member here) has a Transmission business http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-4R.html that specializes in these. His base model, for up to 300HP, requires many modifications to live. I told him that I wanted one for strictly street duty and he informed me that it will die driving like a granny, WOT was not the issue.
I know you said you wont modify it so this is just a heads up. Good luck.

Also check out his Tech section: http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-...uild_Tech.html

Let me try to re-word this. I was told that a stock, unmodified 2004R would die fairly quickly behind even 300HP. I was told the issue was hydraulic in nature and did not require Wide Open Throttle operation to do the damage. I was told that the damage would occur at part throttle.
With the proper mods this transmission can last a very long time even behind big power.
This page explains what I'm trying to: http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-...uild_Tech.html

[Mr Twister]

It will work fine. In reading your first post, it seems you have a low compression engine with a small cam. Those transmissions got a bad rep when owners underspent on internal mods and put them behind powerful engines, however, my transmission builder did tell me that the stall converters are expensive. I used the vacuum valve method to enable lock up on my retrofit installation. I took the parts off a mid 80's carbed blazer with a th700r4. I cant speak for other ways to get the lock up function working, but recommend using the lock up feature. While i was figuring out the way to do it, my transmission got very hot with out lock up. The MCSS trans valve body calibration is more performance oriented than other ones, so it should be OK in the Trans Am.

[pont3]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

Let me try to re-word this. I was told that a stock, unmodified 2004R would die fairly quickly behind even 300HP. I was told the issue was hydraulic in nature and did not require Wide Open Throttle operation to do the damage. I was told that the damage would occur at part throttle.
With the proper mods this transmission can last a very long time even behind big power.
This page explains what I'm trying to: http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-...uild_Tech.html

Okay, all that is fine and dandy. But do YOU have personal experience with the 200-4r in non-factory applications? I do, and I'm not a transmission expert nor rebuilder, nor am I in business to sell transmissions.

Jakeshoe is not the ONLY transmission expert in the United States, and I don't question his integrity. However, he IS in business to sell transmissions and to maximize his return. So if supporting the bad rap these transmissions undeservedly get means selling higher dollar units for him.....

A totally stock MCSS transmission will live just fine behind any Pontiac STREET engine. If the factory parts failed prematurely, it wasn't because of the engine it was bolted to, it failed because of inferior parts. The failures occurred early on in this transmission's life and upgraded parts were specified. This is BEFORE anyone ever swapped one into a non-oem application.

As I've stated, AAMCO rebuilt my 200-4r and no parts were used other than normal standard rebuild parts. I'm heading into my fourth year now with zero issues. Perhaps they used upgraded parts, but they didn't mention it to me.

I owned a 1988 MCSS for over six years with a fairly potent 350 sbc. Only problem with the 200-4r was the lock-up solenoid, which was fixed for less than 100 bucks. I'd still be daily driving that car if it hadn't been stolen.

I'm in no way suggesting that the 200-4r is as stout as a th400 or its derivatives, but I'm thoroughly convinced that they aren't as weak some sources claim.

[Overkillphil]

Yep, put it in and run it. If its good as it sits now and you set up the TV cable properly (I believe you will based on your aforementioned 700R4 retrofit) it will perform well for your intended use. You'll love the full throttle shift to 4th (OD) too.

I've put quite a few in like this as retrofits, intending to upgrade them later on but they worked great and just kept running like a Swiss watch.

[pastry_chef]

For anyone interested in learning more about and working with the 2004R, I highly recommend CK's manual!

http://www.ckperformance.com/resourc...CALMANUAL.html

It is super detailed!

[Torquewar]

Was going to also mention CK Trans lots of positive feedback from various sites ,and they live behind some very stout stuff.
This will be where i go once im done with my th400.

[gtoboy455]

gtoformula,

I have had the exact same CZ trans behind my 455 + .060 with 3.90 gears. Engine makes well over 450 HP and I have put over 5,000 miles on the stock, unrebuilt trans. It has seen several 250+ mile trips with trans temps never going over 190. I have a liquid filled Autometer gauge and normal aftermarket trans cooler. I average 18 mpg's with most of it thru town. I strongly recommend using the CZ trans. If you decide not to, let me know. I would love to have a spare for my next Pontiac project. Best of luck to you!

[moparcolt]

So as to how to put one in the car. Install is pretty easy. Has a dual bolt pattern so it bolts right up to the motor. Uses the same cross member as a TH400 and the same driveshaft as a TH350. I have one in my pro street firebird and just put one in a SS396 chevelle. They are awesome transmissions. I have used the B&M lockup controller on both installs, I think the lockup is a good idea and easy to install. Even if youdidnt use an afgermarket kit one wire to a switch and to tthe trans and you could actuate the clutch manually if you want.
you have to get the right brackets to bolt the TV cable to your carb and adjust it properly, this is a must! The trans wont live 15 minutes without it.
There is a company called shiftworks that makes all kinds of neet Dapters to put OD transmissions in cars and make the factory shifter work and look stock, including new gates and shiftter gear indicators.

If the trans is good machanically it will probably work for you just fine, and the savings in fuel will be substantial.
my fire bird with a 465 stroker, making 525 HP and fitted with 2-600 holley's 4.88 gears and 33x22.5 hoosiers gets 15+mpg and cruises at 2200-2500 RPM on the freeway doing 65-70.
I have a 3000 stall converter so the lockup drops the rpm another 200 or so at cruising speeds and cuts down on the heat.



My trans was done by vince janis who does a lot of these for the Grand National racers. He is one of the best in the country. I have his stage one trans in my car which is good for around 500 HP I have been beating on it for 3 summers and no problems yet.

let me know if you have any specific questions, I am happy to help

[scld1354]

I pulled a 200-4R from an early 80's Caddy. It looked good inside, so I replaced the filter and gasket, and seals. I also had to install the TC lockup solenoid. (I forget the part number at the moment.) I picked up the lockup switch from eBay, and used a cruise control brake switch to cut power to the lockup solenoid when the brakes are applied. I don't plan on ever flogging it, so I opted not to build it.

I looked for your 700R4 install thread, but couldn't find it? Anyway, If you did the 700R4 install, you know about the bracket needed for the TV cable.

If not, you can buy it from JEGS or SUMMIT. I was able to find the right bracket in the junkyard.

Shiftworks is awesome to deal with. I believe THIS is the kit you need to convert your stock shifter and keep the stock appearance (if that's important to you).

As fa as the install, mine was in a B-body that originally had a TH400. I was able to reuse the cross-member, but had to modify it by moving the mounting pad forward a couple inches (cut, fabricate patches and gussets, weld). The 200-4r is shorter than the TH400, and I still need to have a drive shaft built.

What about your gears? With my setup, Ill be doing a tad less than 1500 RPM at 65MPH. I plan on stepping up to 3.55s for the rear, which will up my 65MPH RPM to just over 1900.

[gtoformula]

I really appreciate all the replies and recommendations. A few questions to some of the forum members that have replied:

moparcolt - you mention that I will need a THM 400 crossmember? Didn't know that. I've got the original M38 trans. Can I use the current crossmember or will I need to install a M40 crossmember. And where does one go to locate a 400 crossmember. Don't think that many F-bodies came with the 400. Available aftermarket?

scld1354 - for the 700R4 install I did a lengthy write up in Word that was published in the GTOAA Legend magazine many years ago. It took them three issues to publish the entire article ... that's why it isn't in this forum. I had my GTO throttle shaft altered by Cliff Ruggles to include the TV cable lever. My 1976 Formula has a throttle cable for the M38 kickdown and has a bracket and linkage on the carb. I was thinking that the current bracket would have the same relationship so that I could use it as a direct hook up with the 2004R TV cable. I may use the Shiftworks shifter kit with this car. With the GTO I just used the existing shift mechanism. It works in all gears and has the advantage of not going in to neutral from forward gears until depressing the lock out button. This keeps me from manually upshifting it into neutral while at the track. I've had it like this for years and it works fine.

[moparcolt]

It may not need to be a 400 crossmember exactly but it is the same distance approx from the motor as a TH 400

My car is a 67 so the 350 and 400 crossmembers are different
Yours may have different holes in the frame and use one mount. My GTO is like that.

There are aftermarket crossmembers available

[indymanjoe]

i looked as well for your write up and couldnt find it.Looking forward to seeing this current project take shape.

[gtoformula]

Originally Posted by indymanjoe

i looked as well for your write up and couldnt find it.Looking forward to seeing this current project take shape.

I never posted the write up in this forum. It is six pages long in a Word document. I've sent it to several forum members over the years, but they had to send me their email addresses so that I could send it as an attachment.
I may start working on it next week while my wife is out of town. I'm going to take my time on this one. Will start with cleaning up the trans, install new pump and tailshaft seals, new trans filter/gasket with a TCI lock up kit.

[scld1354]

Originally Posted by gtoformula

I had my GTO throttle shaft altered by Cliff Ruggles to include the TV cable lever. My 1976 Formula has a throttle cable for the M38 kickdown and has a bracket and linkage on the carb. I was thinking that the current bracket would have the same relationship so that I could use it as a direct hook up with the 2004R TV cable.

I forgot to mention, I rebuilt my Qjet with a Chevy throttle shaft (with Chevy linkage). I scavenged one from an 80's Suburban at the junkyard. I didn't want to have to worry about getting the geometry wrong by making my own.

I was thinking the same thing about using a TH350 bracket. The distance between the TV cable mound and the carb stud mounts was too long (about 4"). I don't have side-by-side comparison shots, but here is the Th350 bracket I am talking about. (It's right about 4", but the angle I took the pic at makes it look like the tape measure is short.)