[transam1972]

can anyone go into explanation of how GMs SR engine program worked..I am confirmed on a 1973 SR engine in a Nov. 71 built T/A...any known H.O. problems?..I know the only way to learn the real problem would be to speak to the owner but does anyone have any SR H.O. stories?...any common or known assembly problems or more like ,who knows?...what happened to the removed engines?...anyone with any information I would really enjoy learning more...always,thankyou

[1971WARBIRD]

one of the stories I heard(and you know how that goes). the HO was a great engine for the street, with lots of power down low. when guys started running them on the track and winding them out, the rods were not up to the task. miss a shift and out the side they would go. even on the street, if you tried driving it like a 400, it might decide it didn't like it and take a break.
I will let the people that know the system inside and out, get into the details of how it worked, but remember. back in the day, they didn't care about numbers matching blocks and such, just if it ran right. I knew of guys who took their cars into transmission shops to have them rebuilt, only to find out much later that the shop had swapped in an already rebuilt transmission for theirs that needed to be built.
so in other words, yours may have needed new bearings, new head gaskets, what ever that we would call simple now, and the dealer just drop in a replacement block. when Murphy Pontiac went out of business in Troy Ohio, they still had a couple 4 bolt 400 fitted blocks in the parts department.

[transam1972]

thanks WARBIRD..I hope to hear more, of course only the original owner knows for sure..but I am looking at my big picture...Nov.71 built, 1973 SR motor..car was purchased with 58k in 1985, so approximately 3800 miles a year..car was female owned and an auto...the engine failed early in its life...yes, I am guessing at 7,600 miles I am wondering about stories of engine mechanical failure due to an error in the original assembly...I would like to hear of known SR motor replacement not due to owner fault...Imagine buying an H.O. and it gives out because when it was built the assembler forgot to..............?...my car did not live a hard life....I have photos of the bottem end with the oil pan off...I do not plan on it but removing the intake and looking inside, can you look for engine wear?..same with pulling a head?....I always believed..if it runs good, don't mess with it...plus this was a brand new motor..it may have 50k, not 58k...GM would not replace an engine due to owner error..I would like to know there policy, thanks!..............on the other hand,in the late seventies..1978 is when I began my serious search for a early TRANS AM..back then you were limited to how far you were willing to drive..and any car that I looked at was unacceptable..realize I am in H.S. and this is going to be my car, not a restoration..I had to settle for a 1976 white 455 4 speed with 23k for $4500 in Jan. 1979..now I know why so many were trashed!...and growing up,I never saw an early T/A ever..not till going to a car ad in 78

[junkmancometh]

I'm not sure of the HO motors, but my RA III has an "SR" motor. Dated 1972 as the original owner grenaded the WS block.The T/A was still under warranty and returned to the dealer for block replacement only. All other existing engine components were bolted back on the motor. This is what i learned, but i cannot validate it. Once an order was placed for an SR motor through a service warranty,a short block was machined for it's application ie; 2 or 4 bolt main and assembled in an off line assembly area. Then tagged and shipped. The machinist had no idea of a vin number,hence no stampings were provided. I know for a fact when my friends father detonated his Tri-power vette motor in 1970, he waited into the evening for the block which was handtrucked next to the dumpster at the dealership. That motor found it's way into his pickup bed and back to his barn. When he told me this, I did not believe him. The next time we visited his fathers home, we walked in the barn and i laid my eyes on the original 427 block with an optional hole in 1 cylinder!!!

[transam1972]

thanks!!I do enjoy remembering past..I grew up around W-30 442s, 69 Z-28s 67 SHELBY 73 Mach 1, CORVETTES and GS X..Definitely a better world then..I cannot imagine being 20 in 1970 though!!!decisions,decisions!

[2manyT/A'S]

Food for thought.......and NO disrepect for the opposite sex......BUT......you might want to remember that woman haven't changed much over the years and MOST do NOT understand the concept of checking oil & coolant on a regular basis...

A boil over or blown rad hose in the summer and coolant replaced with inadequate freeze protection spells cracked block next winter......OR low oil...starved bearings will BOTH lead to an SR shortblock at the dealer...even when out of warranty...

[transam1972]

I considered that, and that could be true but then she would have paid for that motor...her husband worked for the PONTIAC dealer and the car was dealer maintained...when I got it she gave me a trunk full of new parts..many I used..new choke, fuel pump and a 72 brand new intake manifold that I did put on..(out the back door?)..so I know my car..at the time I bought it in 85, would you tell the new owner..oh yay,..motor was replaced 12 years ago!...engine failed 1 to 2 years later..what else???!!!

[2manyT/A'S]

Was the party you bought the car from the first owner,for sure?

Perhaps it was traded in AFTER the SR was installed and was purchased as a late model used car...by the husband at the dealer.....Maybe THEY didn't even know...

[rexs73gto]

I am a retired service mgr. (GM) & I can tell you how it works. If you blew an engine in a car back then your car was towed in the car was taken apart. We weren't there to be detectives we were there to make money replacing parts. Most of the time the kids were out racing & we knew it, but it was always the father that was the one the was there saying this POS just blew up & we want it fixed. We had the authority to just fix it. MAYBE sometimes the dist. rep. would come in to see the engine but back then it was not worth the hassle to fight with the owner because if we did the dealer principal would just come in & say fix it I'll argue with the factory if needed. But it was not needed even when we knew the kid blew it up racing it. Now if it happened a 2nd time that sometimes got to be different, but not usually. I was looked at there going to buy another car later if we fix it so it got fixed, no questions. The engine was to be held for 2 weeks for the rep. if he didn't come in to look at then it got thrown out. Most of the time one of the techs would take it home or sometimes the service mrg. (me) would take it home. Other wise it got put out for the trash. Back then it was just another engine, nothing special. It would usually take about 3-4 days to get the new short block & then the parts that were left were transfered over & out the car would go. We would put an engine in 2 times before we would cut the owner off. If for some reason it came back for another engine the factory would get involved or we would trade them into another car & put a used engine in the car for the used car lot. A used engine back then was maybe $ 100.00 for a junk yard & the car would be on the used car lot or sent to the auction to get rid of it. We had 1 70 olds 442 come in 4 times for spun bearings, we knew he was racing it because I raced him once with it, but after the 4th bearing we did find it had a bad crank & it went away after that. But that was rare. During the late 60's early 70's engine were replaced like zippers on a bad coat. That why it's really hard to find a matching numbers car, even though you seem to see a lot of them now. But they are not that common in real life. There are more restamps then there are real numbers matching cars. I hope this gives you a little better insight into what really happened back then.

[transam1972]

I have the original title in her name (photocopy before transfer to me)after it was paid off..this was a car she ordered

[transam1972]

I appreciate your post..you were there and did it when I look in my engine bay I would never have known...the service techs obviously did a great job because all of the original wiring..stuff going to the firewall clips etc. is perfect..my car was never a hot rod...the car was loaded up with auto a/c and all the power options...how many early Trans Ams did you see like that...she told me she ordered it and I know she did, just by the color and the options..one of the real reasons I did not pass on the car was that it ran great, 58k..but IT was all original down to the am/fm stereo radio and original rallys...and the fact she was a woman...guys do beat on there cars and I looked at a few trashed T/As before I handed her over my 5 grand...thanks RICK, I never knew you worked at a dealership!...it was better I think back then!!!

[rexs73gto]

I went in the Navy fro 3 1/2 years I had bought my 73 GTO then & was stationed in Norfolk VA. I did a lot of street racing then & when you say the girls didn't beat on their cars you have to think a little bit about that. There was a girl who had a 71 T/A that I ended up racing about 4 times back then . She was hard on that car. Fact was she was as hard on it as any of the guys that were out then. She was always mad at me because she couldn't beat me & she tried hard to do it. So when you say they weren't as hard on their cars your only partly correct. I had an advantage back then because I did some things to my 73 back then that was a bit different then what was going on with the rest of the cars. most were looking for gas miliage , but I was looking to go faster then all the rest. I loved having the low gears back then as there was a lot of open road in Norfolk & aroun then. I remember getting back late while on leave & coming through Richmond on 64. Coming out of Richmond going south on 64 you go south & it takes you through a section that was clled Sherwood forest. At that time it was brand new road , 4 lanes seperated by about 50-75 feet of woods in the middle. I was late & running a bit fast, (about 100 mph) & at about 1/2 way through about 25 miles outside of Newport News i saw a state cop in the middle sitting. Oh Sh1T, I hit the gas & away I went. About 3-4 miles down the road there sat another cop waiting for me in the center again. The 1st cop clocked me at 108 mph, the 2nd got me at 157 mph. I was flying low & scared cause I knew I was going to jail & then I'd get courtmarshled on top of that. About 1-2 miles from Newport News is the Hampton Bay bridge Tunnel, it goes down & up to the left. I didn't want to en up in the bay as I knew at that speed I had that chance. Scared to death I stopped & pulled over. I waited for what seeded like an hour for them to catch up to me. When they got out of the car I was just sitting there shaking cause I knew I had had it. But they both walked up slowly , I rolled down the window. They just stood there for a couple of min's talking to each other just out of where I could hear. Then 1 came up & said open your hood. HUH. I said say that again. He said open your hood. I did & he said ok get out. Hear it came Teh cuffs were going on. But instead he started asking me all kinds of questions about the car & engine. We were there for about 1/2 hour talking about the car & the egien & what I had done to it. These guys were into cars & racing. After awhile the 1 trooper said he was goignt o give me a WARNING. I about fell over. He told me that if he took me in he'd have to explain about his clocked time & that the judge would say it was wrong & that would lead to a big discusion & then get throwen out for inaccurate readings. Plus I explained why I was going so fast , because I was already late. He was a good guy for a change. I kept the ticket in a frame for a long time , but don't know where it is now as I've moved several times over the years. I did see him out a few times for dinner & a few quick times around the town when he was off. But after I got hooked up with my future wife I didn't see him to much after that. I still have the car as you can see by my screen name & I don't think I'll ever get rid of it. It won't go that fast now as the rear gears are 3:73's but it will get up to 125 mph. real fast now. The car runs 11:50's at 122 mph but it's all done at the end. But as far as girls not beating on their cars that is not true. They hurt them just as much as we do. Plus they don't check oil & or change it either. I can't tell you how many I've seen come in with oil so old it's so thick it won't hardly come out. I went back to the dealerships in 77 after I got out of the Navy & have seen so much dumb stuff thats I could write a book about it. Some funny some just plain stupid. But it comes from girls to.

[rexs73gto]

I know the last one is long but if you want to see what my car looks like today you'll have to go on the A Body Site as I can't figure out how to put a pic of my car in my avatar. I think it looks as good today as it did then, actually I think it looks better. The paint is definetly better.

[rexs73gto]

You know once I start thinking about the past alot comes back eveb late at night. I forgto to mention in the 1st post about a few things about the replacement engines. On some of the engine you may have read in here from time to time about engine having what looks like a double stamp on the engines for bot the vin's & where there stamped up on top where the engine code is. Yes some of that is done at the factory when they miss stamp an engine & try to cover it up by stamping over it. Sme times when we replaced a complete engine on a car where someone had blowen it up so bad that the heads were bad or they over rev'ed so much tht it dropped a couple of valves we would pul the engine out & grind down the numbers & restamp the numbers on the block. Sometimes the complete set of numbers & then maybe just few so it would match the engine numbers in the car if they were close enough. It was so bad at times that the stamps didn't even match so the letters looked different to. Most all the techs (mechs) had stamps in their box but th parts room had the correct ones if we were doing it right. Thats why when you go to some shows & see some of the stamped numbers that they look so messed up. It was common pratice back then . Not much different then turning back a speedometer. Any real high miliage car would always get turned back, because back then if you were looking for a car if you saw one with 100K it was completly worn out & no one would buy it. If the car had say 75 K on it & w knew it would go another 5 K without having any problems becasue we knew the car & had service records of it it would get turned back to about 45-48K because that was a good sellable miliage for most used car that were 2-3 years old. As I said I could write a book , & I can say this stuff because the dealers I worked for ,,, well most are gone now. I think the best one was A dealer I worked for had a vette that he had drov for about 5 years & had wrecked it 3 times. Once he hit a tree so hard it went up the tree. Our body shop of course fixed it each time & did a good job. But when he sold this vette he sold it of course as NEW because he never titled it , he had always driven it on a dealer plate so it was correct in fact but he didn't disclose to them that it had been put together 3 times before. He sold it for a top price because it had never been titled. I hated delievering that car, I wanted to tell them But I also liked my job. SO !!!

[Judge273]

Originally Posted by transam1972

I considered that, and that could be true but then she would have paid for that motor...her husband worked for the PONTIAC dealer and the car was dealer maintained...when I got it she gave me a trunk full of new parts..many I used..new choke, fuel pump and a 72 brand new intake manifold that I did put on..(out the back door?)..so I know my car..at the time I bought it in 85, would you tell the new owner..oh yay,..motor was replaced 12 years ago!...engine failed 1 to 2 years later..what else???!!!

Can you ask her today? That's a good reason to stay in touch too.

[transam1972]

as soon as I have a car to drive, that is a priority...in 85 first buying the car I was acting like it was just an old Firebird, I did not want to give her more than $1500..it was 85 and in some weird way she new..she did say,..this is a TRANS AM, they do not make them like this any more...she wanted $5k...no less..she would not come down a $1...she also said that people always asked to buy the car...I am certain it was the price..even when I told her that's more than it cost new...she paid me no mind...and it was more a city area NYC is not far away..she was an early 50 ish Spanish woman..you dont think about someone like that buying a original TRANS AM..but I grew up in a nice safe white neighborhood..I never thought of a city where all different races & cultures lived together, why would she not have wanted a TRANS AM?...she ordered it her way and I am greatful..Power everything but an auto & Lucerne blue, yet she did not spend extra for the deluxe interior and may not have gotten Honeycombs for fear of the wheels being stolen!! I did stop by in 2007, but she was not home...only with the passage of time do I wonder now about those missing 14 years...she did screw it up with a cheap silver paint, but I am lucky that was all that was done..would love to see a back in the day photo of it Lucerne blue and RallyIIs!!..on my thread I posted a copy of the original title before I transferred to my name..and a fellow PYer remembered the car from just before I got it in 85 and it had been silver for a few years...atleast since 1983...so you do find out great past history about your car from this forum!!!..........REX I dig the VETTE story!..LOL..up the tree!!..and sold for new!!...definitely 100,000 miles and over for 70s car!!!its over Johnny!!...but again, back to the SR engine...so I own this car now almost 30 years and if it not for this site I would never know the 455 H.O.was removed and a brand new one installed?!...in 85 I popped the hood when no one was around to see under the hood..first I look at the exhaust manifolds...that right there to me said...455High Output...I closed it and said, damn!! I want this car!!!...eventually 5 months later she called again and the offer was there and the rest is my past history!!!....but still interested in how or why a 455 H.O. could or would fail in 8k miles and under..within the first 2 years of ownership????

[transam1972]

[Lloyd-TX]

FWIW . . .

Pontiac did NOT stock nor sell complete replacement engines, long blocks or short blocks. PMD provided so-called fitted blocks for service replacements, be it a warranty repair or not.

Fitted blocks came with main caps and bolts, core and galley plugs, pistons and rings, cam bearings, and that's about it. Crankshaft, camshaft, connecting rods, main and rod bearings etc. (if necessary) were sold separately.

[transam1972]

the engine appears to have what I would describe as SR heads..meaning the block comes without heads and these heads have a cast # that someone told me indicates 1973 produced H.O. heads...another weird thing that I remember is in 89 when I started to clean the engine compartment and replace hoses, I opted for chrome valve covers (by the way, it came with a new intake manifold that I installed and left natural...the original was unpainted (flaked off in actuality) or so I thought..so for 20 years I thought it was right!!..only til I joined this site did I learn they were painted (which I quickly did!) so anyway when I removed and stored away the original valve covers, I recall they had drippers...which came out in 1973...so these heads, made in 73, got later style covers, either by accident or that is what the factory used for the replacement heads?!!...so I wonder if they used the original crank or camshaft??...the alternator is original..but the carburetor is a SR from 75..I realize the exhaust manifolds. oil pan,brackets, etc. have to be original but not much!!..getting new heads at the same time, to me I feel as though the owners husband may have insisted on new everything in regards to the engine...I mean even if it was a head problem that then messed up the engine..you would not also replace a perfectly good head, unless you were like..NEW EVERYTHING!!..I hope she is well and living there because I do want to know!..this forum is WHY I know!!!

[1971WARBIRD]

started to ask why you thought they were SR heads, but I now see the Nov 71 build date for the car, and April 13 1972 casting date on the heads.