[Big Mike]

Originally Posted by johnta1

RA V article


And for more articles:

RA V's and more

They milled 1.5 inches off the deck in the 303? Would there even be a deck left nevermind head bolt holes if you milled off 1.5"? How would you get the intake manifold to fit?

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I remember that car from years ago and it was in my mind that the old guy had mixed up the colors somewhere in his memory. White with Gold accents.

But the story I heard was that Tom Nell sent him a couple of RA-V engines and Bill's people made the swap. Not a "ordered from the factory" deal.

Here is a link to his famous 66 GTO (same White with Gold trim).

http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/i...howtopic=82327

A known Racer like Bill K. would obviously know another racer named Tom Nell as Nell was helping Beswick. JMT

Tom V.

From the factory, no way.

PHS states otherwise....

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=463357

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=452331

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Steve Hoog

According to Arlen Vanke it has the motor in it that they received from the factory. He said it went to engineering before it was shipped to Knafel.

9792968 K1 68 cast on back.

545687 EO-3777 #12 stamped on front.

That statement says that The Engine was not installed on the line, therefore NOT PRODUCTION. So it went to "Engineering" before being shipped or if Tom Nell sent him a couple of V engines on a pallet, the point is people are mixing up PRODUCTION BUILT (vehicle/engine as it came off the line) with "Toys" or "Mules" created by "Engineering" teams to play games on the track.

The only "Engineering" effort with any documentation so far has been the Royal GTO (Wanger's) with this RAV "built" at "Engineering" but why would you pay Royal to install a RA-V engine for another dealership?

If you say it came from "Engineering" (about as vague as you can get), you get some credibility for the engine being in the car vs swapped in by some dealership employees.

Same applies to a Roush Built Mustang, either their build or you need the DOCUMENTATION and name of the Engineer who authorized/paid for the installation/work. Even then the Mustang is a MULE not a production build. Again using the term "FACTORY" to imply PRODUCTION LINE BUILT vs a MULE.

Tom V.

ps I do the job for a living.

[J.C.you]

Just talking to my buddy that was at the RV park the day the V story was passed. He remembers the V guy saying that the 69 had headers on it. I missed that in the conversation.

[Tom Vaught]

From the other thread:

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

I have not read every word of this thread, so I may not make sense. (I need to get back to work!! You guys are killing my productivity--lol.) But I read years ago that some of the 70 Ram Air IV's came with "super duty" connecting rods. They were called Ram Air IV Super Duty's by some. If this is true, I'm not sure if they got Ram Air V rods or old 421 super duty rods. I cannot remember. You could order the old 421 super duty rods back then I believe because I have an over the counter NOS set of 421 super duty rods, and the guy I bought them from purchased them over the counter when he worked for Pontiac in the early 70's he said.

I believe what I read said that these cars got the old super duty rods if my memory is correct. You guys let me know if I'm wet behind the ears, but I definitely read this many years ago. Could this be the mystery amount?

The Connecting Rods were forged 421 SD rods. I know because I personally worked on a RA-IV SD car-engine in the early 70s at my Uncle's Pontiac Dealership.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Steve Hoog

My entire reason to start the pursuit of history on Knafel two years ago was because as time goes on the less likely it is to find any truth, since that time John Delorean has passed away.

Everyone is getting older and memories fade.

I saw the possibility and wanted to do my best to explore it.

Though I have been met with strong opposition from a vocal few in the forums, I have been helped in private by some of the nicest people you can imagine. I have talked to more Pontiac engineers and Royal people than any normal Pontiac enthusiast could ever hope for. Yes I consider myself just a normal Pontiac guy. I have found out several things that I cannot share in public, I have to respect some one’s privacy when asked. I do not have definitive proof on any specific Knafel car; however it is my opinion that Mr. Knafel did receive special favors, unfortunately I don’t think we will ever know what from paper documentation.

I have tried to post any RAV stuff on my web page that may be a rarity, for the enjoyment of anyone interested. All of that data would not have come about had I not started this. If my web page is of value to one person, I feel it’s a success.

I have the utmost respect for John Delorean and Jim Wangers, these two played the biggest part in what we all now cling to. George Delorean, Bill Knafel, Ace Wilson, and all the other less known players make up the balance. John’s vision, Jim’s marketing skills, and all the people that loved Pontiac performance created the success of Pontiac in the 60’s.

Tom Nell just did a three piece interview that was published in HPP, he mentioned that Rocky’s Goat received special back door help. I don’t know anything about Rocky other than some one posted a pic of the car in Yenko a couple of years ago. I would like to know more about that car, who he was and what he got. If I start looking into this car and posting what I find, will Rocky and Tom’s integrity then been in jeopardy? Some one in Yenko recently posted a very sweet pic of a 69 Bird from Stephens Pontiac, I would like to more about it. If Sawyer researches that dealer and post his findings, will Stephens Pontiac’s credibility then be in danger? If Baron posts some information on one of the Judges from the Florida testing, will he then be accused of doing it for profitable gain? If RAIVJUDGE gets to talk with Tom Goad and Tom says something that isn’t on his PHS, will Tom then be a liar?

I was shown a sworn statement several years ago written and signed by Bill Knafel, while standing next to a stunning Silver Judge.

The quote above just about sums it all up.

I think about 99.99999999999999999% of the people would agree that NO RAV ENGINES WERE INSTALLED ON THE PONTIAC ASSEMBLY LINE.

The ~ $100.00 cost of the special option obviously is not a RAV engines cost. (I bought a new set of 70 RA-IV bare head castings (at my uncle's dealer price) in 1971
for a bit over $300.00 so I can say the factory would not sell a complete RAV engine for $100+ above a RA-IV cost.).

I could tell you some interesting facts about the Schultz car, (as related to the VIN).

So I will leave this discussion to the experts on this deal.

Tom V.

[The Boss]

Tom, the thread started with a conversation about a car rolling off a transport with the V in it and the veracity of that story.

Where/how the motors were installed is becoming a lesson in semantics but lets leave it that apparently some cars did roll off transports at dealerships with V motors in them. How they got there, the billing & $$$$ involved, who installed them etc. is all conjecture based on 2nd hand information.

PS I do this for fun.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by sdbob

Half Inch Stud do you remember the guys name? I bought parts from guy who was a parts man at the local Pontiac dealer there. He use to tow with a 65 lemans stationwagon and raced a think a 65 GTO w RAIV. The only guy that I knew that had 303 and RAV 'stuff' was Jim Miller from Monroeville. He built both 303 and V engines just for racing.

Of course; Joe Corrado

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

Just talking to my buddy that was at the RV park the day the V story was passed. He remembers the V guy saying that the 69 had headers on it. I missed that in the conversation.

While gong through some late 50's- mid 60's "Popular Mechanics"; i saw new Pontiac & Olds V8 headers for sale, two companies in CA. Photos of the headers made me do a double-take as they appeared as RoundPorts but had to convince myself they were meant to fit D-ports.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Tom, the thread started with a conversation about a car rolling off a transport with the V in it and the veracity of that story.

Where/how the motors were installed is becoming a lesson in semantics but lets leave it that apparently some cars did roll off transports at dealerships with V motors in them. How they got there, the billing & $$$$ involved, who installed them etc. is all conjecture based on 2nd hand information.

PS I do this for fun.

Yes, Rolling off a Transport (Transports are not a part of GM and are Contracted Services). Arriving with a V motor in them. I could say the same about several "Mules" I have had shipped to different parts of the world: (Mexico, Canada, etc for test purposes). I am just pointing out that Mules and PRODUCTION vehicles are different animals, Boss. Just because a Production vehicle and a Vehicle with a "Development Engine" both arrive on a Transporter does not make them the same. Agree on the 2nd hand information (probably Third hand as most 2nd hand are dead today)

Tom V.

[sdbob]

Yes Joe he has been fooling around with Pontiacs for awhile. He is hard to get intouch with now.

[tom s]

I had a pic of a 69 T/A with a 303 shortdeck in it.Had Mich MFG plates on it.That would have been the car to find,even more important than Moes silver bird in my mind.Tom

[johnta1]

I had a pic of a 69 T/A with a 303 shortdeck in it.Had Mich MFG plates on it.

This one maybe?
(or the one the article says they did one in June issue)

[tom s]

Im sure that was it John.Tom

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

ps I do the job for a living.

Originally Posted by The Boss

PS I do this for fun.

I do it for both.



K