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THE LOBBY A gathering place. Introductions, sports, showin' off your ride, birthday-anniversary-milestone, achievements, family oriented humor. |
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#21
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Point is still valid, though (ie, easier to clone a '64 or '65). K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 Last edited by Keith Seymore; 10-23-2014 at 11:07 AM. |
#22
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K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
#23
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As the saying goes "ignorance of the law is no excuse". K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
#24
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2nd: Cue Theme Song http://youtu.be/AepyGm9Me6w 3rd: Congrats to self for "Another Job Well-done" |
#25
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Most laws I have read seems to always point if they remove or alter the vin to commit fraud. It looks like he cut a piece of metal that he needed to salvage his restoration project now has this left from the donor car.
Now if someone buys this and place this vin on another vehicle, that person is committing fraud. I don't see where the seller is doing anything wrong. That frame may not be the actual frame that goes with this vin but how are we to speculate that from here. Seems we are speculating guilty before the trial. Section B - US Code http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511
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68 400 HO 4sp Convertible Firebird400HO.com My 68 firebird 400 HO convertible Restoration Gallery Last edited by silverbullet07; 10-23-2014 at 01:55 PM. |
#26
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He also removed the tag from the firewall. That is wrong too. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if he'd left that one alone. Both removed is wrong no matter what.
This says it all: 18 U.S. Code § 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers (a) A person who— (1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or (2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
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Gary Get in, ShuT Up, Hang On! Member of the Baltimore Built Brotherhood MY GTO built 4th Week of March 1966 "Crusin' Is Not A Crime" Keep yer stick on the ice. |
#27
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But section b allows it to repair or replace you got to read the whole article when it pertains to law.
(b) (1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen). (2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are— (A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part; (B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair; (C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and (D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by— (i) the owner or his authorized agent; (ii) applicable State or local law; or (iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
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68 400 HO 4sp Convertible Firebird400HO.com My 68 firebird 400 HO convertible Restoration Gallery Last edited by silverbullet07; 10-23-2014 at 03:30 PM. |
#28
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Its not that big of a deal. Stuff like this happens a lot, usually its not on Ebay for everyone to see, but it happens a lot. Sometimes its shady business, but other times its out of necessity. As long as you do it right, you're in the clear.
Example: Does everyone think people who buy new Dynacorn bodies go through the hassle of getting a state issued vin? Hell naw, just remove and replace the original. Not that I would ever condone this activity Its just a piece of metal with numbers and letters on it.
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"Those poor souls have made the fatal mistake of surrounding us. Now we can fire in any direction" 1970 Trans Am RAIII 4 speed 1971 Trans Am 5.3 LM7 1977 Trans Am W72 Y82 1987 Grand National |
#29
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Correct me of I'm wrong but Kevin Marti reproduces the vin and trim tags for Mustangs as long as you provide him the original. I don't know about other states but in UT unless there is a reason to believe the car was involved in a theft, law enforcment could care less.
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Jack Ferris RestoRacing LLC www.restoracing.com Sandy, UT --------------------------------------------------- |
#30
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There are several people that reproduces trim tags. People just like to create drama.
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68 400 HO 4sp Convertible Firebird400HO.com My 68 firebird 400 HO convertible Restoration Gallery |
#31
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Nothing wrong about removing the trim tag, it contains zero legal information used for ID purposes. Many cars just use screws to secure it.
Removing the VIN comes down to intent. Remove it for restoration purposes and it's allowed under law. Remove it for any other reasons and the law might get involved, even if just to issue you a new state-assigned VIN. |
#32
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Mines currently off the dash - the vin, and the trim both. My cowl was toast. I'll weld it back on soon.
Don't worry, you'll know I messed in there by the roll cage. I have no plans to sell.
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Jon B |
#33
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Mine is off my 69 RA IV GTO
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Some guys they just give up living And start dying little by little, piece by piece, Some guys come home from work and wash up, And go racin' in the street. Bruce Springsteen - Racing In The Street - 1978 |
#34
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Depends on intent
Quote:
That auction you noted might be for the VIN number(s) and title if a title was offered. It is illegal to sell a title and/or VIN intended to be used for another vehicle. It is a common practice for Model T autos that got to be so prevalent and profitable the listings were referred to as " historical documents ". Not uncommon for a Buyer purchase a " project vehicle " off of ebay, then ask the Seller to remove the VIN numbers and mail them to to the Buyer along with the title ... Had that happen to at least one vehicle I went to pick up .... Not a good idea to ever remove a VIN number off a vehicle unless you own it & are planning on putting back on after restoration. It all goes to intent. Removal and/or tampering of a VIN number with intent to defraud or mislead should be considered a crime .... Jim
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Click Here To See Where I Am Today |
#35
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SOLD, $2125.00... NEXT!
look for a new '67 soon
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When I die, I want to go peacefully like my grandfather did, in his sleep. Not screaming like the passengers in his car. |
#36
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I will say again, I believe we should keep a running list of VINs that we come across for sale. Even just a separate thread in the stolen/missing section with a sticky. I know I've come across probably half a dozen.
(Of course the last time I mentioned one I saw for sale on ebay, I got warnings in my PM.)
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Thad 1958 Chieftain Safari (370,4 spd, 9 passenger) Daily Driver 1966 Bonneville Wagon (Factory 421,3x2,4spd, 9 passenger) On the road!! |
#37
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There was a guy who was selling 1st gen F body cowl tags and VIN plates recently. He had 1 Camaro and five Firebirds. One firebird had the hidden Vin set also.
The guys at Team Camaro put the VIN and body numbers in the thread for anyone that searches them in the future, will pull up that thread I recommend people do that anytime you something like that, so there will he a record in the future on it.
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#38
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We could start a vin list, Except this guy did not reveal the vin numbers. He even put tape over the plates to hide the numbers in the pictures.
Ebay allowed this sale even though they have a clear rule against selling frames with titles, or titles without a complete car, or vin plates, or rivets. I guess they don't care, as long as they get paid. The guy cut the door post to get the plate off. What's that about? Even if you bought that frame and firewall to legitimately restore it, there isn't much left to prove that what's left of that body was truly the same HO GTO for those plates and title, and not a Tempest, a Lemans, or base model GTO with ac. I cannot quote which 1967 GTO models are more or less valuable, but suppose, if you will, the seller had two GTOs. One HO, and another even rarer, more valuable GTO, perhaps a special color or something. Suppose what's left of the GTO body from the auction was the more valuable GTO, while the HO plates and papers in the auction belonged to a more complete, yet less valuable HO car. In theory the plates could have been swapped for a quick "restoration" of the more valuable car. Then whatever is left is sold at auction, as a GTO HO car. Of course this is just a fun theory, and I in no way insinuate that it happened. |
#39
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Build your own 74 GTO!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Pontiac...p2056016.l4276
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be a simple...kinda man. |
#40
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For the above record:
Tags removed to sell on eBay: VIN 2Z17B4L113562 TRIM Body L 124640
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