[Cerberus]

Because they're a bunch of dirty white boys with double vision...............

[Don Keefe]

Being from Lou Gramm's hometown of Rochester, THE ticket of the year was the Foreigner 4 tour stop in Rochester on 10/17/1981. I was a senior in high school and it was pretty amazing. HoF or not, they were a great band.

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by Diego

I have no problem admitting the HoF is political, but it's run by industry insiders and music journalists, who have a definite bias towards the fringe (Velvet Underground, punk, etc.). Likewise, they have an American slant, so many seminal groups across the pond will never make it here.

I have to disagree with ya Diego.

They inducted Madonna, and while she's American, she's hardly fringe. And ABBA (Swedish) made it in, not very cutting edge. Linda Ronstadt is American, but isn't a songwriter, she doesn't play an instrument, and her career was based on covering 1950's rock classics (reworked brilliantly by her producer, Peter Asher). Definitely not fringe or cutting edge.

But together, they sold well over 150 million albums together.

If you support the HOF, the way Bono, Springsteen, Tom Hanks, and many others do, their influence has an impact on who gets into the HOF. The HOF inducts based on how much money an artist can generate with their back catalog. If they (the HOF and the group that owns publishing rights to the artists catalog) determine they can make X amount of dollars by selling downloads, repackaged Greatest Hits, or reunion tours, that group or artist will get to the head of the list for induction.

Not all artists are inducted this way, but it explains why some get in before others that are far more deserving, and why some are simply ignored.

[Diego]

Mike, gotta disagree with you.

Look at Rolling Stone magazine and see who their seminal acts are. Look at their Top 100 Albums list and it's full of "alternative" LPs from the Velvets, Captain Beefheart, Love (who are quite fabulous, actually), Big Star, and punk - music journalists usually have a slant, and they are the ones who promote the slant in the HoF. How popular were these groups? How seminal were they then or now? Depends on who you talk to, but they make up a lot of the choices.

By "American slant," I mean that America has its own paradigm for music, and the Brits have theirs. The HoF reflects the American experience and not anyone else's.

[71 T/A]

Beatles, Stones, Who and other British bands are in the Hall.

[Diego]

And ...?

[MikeNoun]

Yes, but the writers don't really influence the HOF. It's more about money, re-releases of old material, greatest hits, and tie-ins. Money, plain and simple, and paying lip service to Jann Wenner, co-founder of the HOF and Rolling Stone Magazine.

ABBA was inducted when "Mama Mia" was at its peak, and "Glee" and "High School Musical" were at their peak. Coincidence? ABBA was eligible for the past 10 years, and suddenly they were worthy? The HOF claimed it was ABBA's record sales that made them eligible, but if that's the criteria, then The Monkees should have been inducted, and perhaps one day The Spice Girls or The Backstreet Boys? (and I'm not criticizing ABBA or The Monkees, I actually like them).

Brian Epstein, the man who found The Beatles, crafted their image, and was largely responsible for Beatlemania, was just inducted in 2014. He's been eligible for the past 25 years. Why now? Tom Hanks just produced a movie on Brian Epstein's life, due out in 2014 (it's now delayed). Coincidence?

Black Sabbath was inducted in 2006, but were eligible since 1993. Why the wait? The group that is widely regarded as the originators of heavy metal, who influenced countless bands in the 1970's and beyond, and laid the foundations for groups like Metallica, waited 13 years to be inducted. They weren't inducted because Jann Wenner didn't like them. They weren't Rolling Stone Magazine cover material.

Jann Wenner holds grudges against people. There's a reason why Black Sabbath, KISS, Heart, Rush, and others were ignored for many years, while one-hit wonders or artists that didn't impact rock music as much as Jann Wenner claims (like Curtis Mayfield, who penned "SuperFly") get inducted, while groups like Pink Floyd waited years before getting into the HOF.

And seriously, Paul McCartney, with 60 gold records, over 100 million albums sold, and 100 million singles as a Beatle, member of Wings, and solo, had to wait a few years to be inducted as a solo artist, because Jann Wenner idolized John Lennon. When McCartney was finally inducted in 1999 (many said it was because his wife Linda passed away, and under pressure, Jann Wenner finally agreed to induct him), McCartney's daughter wore a t-shirt that read, "It's About F***ing Time" (blurred out during her speech).

I think Foreigner, REO, Styx, Supertramp, and Journey will eventually all go in, as much as it pains Jann Wenner to do so.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Yes, but the writers don't really influence the HOF. It's more about money, re-releases of old material, greatest hits, and tie-ins. Money, plain and simple, and paying lip service to Jann Wenner, co-founder of the HOF and Rolling Stone Magazine.

ABBA was inducted when "Mama Mia" was at its peak, and "Glee" and "High School Musical" were at their peak. Coincidence? ABBA was eligible for the past 10 years, and suddenly they were worthy? The HOF claimed it was ABBA's record sales that made them eligible, but if that's the criteria, then The Monkees should have been inducted, and perhaps one day The Spice Girls or The Backstreet Boys? (and I'm not criticizing ABBA or The Monkees, I actually like them).

Brian Epstein, the man who found The Beatles, crafted their image, and was largely responsible for Beatlemania, was just inducted in 2014. He's been eligible for the past 25 years. Why now? Tom Hanks just produced a movie on Brian Epstein's life, due out in 2014 (it's now delayed). Coincidence?

Black Sabbath was inducted in 2006, but were eligible since 1993. Why the wait? The group that is widely regarded as the originators of heavy metal, who influenced countless bands in the 1970's and beyond, and laid the foundations for groups like Metallica, waited 13 years to be inducted. They weren't inducted because Jann Wenner didn't like them. They weren't Rolling Stone Magazine cover material.

Jann Wenner holds grudges against people. There's a reason why Black Sabbath, KISS, Heart, Rush, and others were ignored for many years, while one-hit wonders or artists that didn't impact rock music as much as Jann Wenner claims (like Curtis Mayfield, who penned "SuperFly") get inducted, while groups like Pink Floyd waited years before getting into the HOF.

And seriously, Paul McCartney, with 60 gold records, over 100 million albums sold, and 100 million singles as a Beatle, member of Wings, and solo, had to wait a few years to be inducted as a solo artist, because Jann Wenner idolized John Lennon. When McCartney was finally inducted in 1999 (many said it was because his wife Linda passed away, and under pressure, Jann Wenner finally agreed to induct him), McCartney's daughter wore a t-shirt that read, "It's About F***ing Time" (blurred out during her speech).

I think Foreigner, REO, Styx, Supertramp, and Journey will eventually all go in, as much as it pains Jann Wenner to do so.

Excellent analysis, Mike.

[Diego]

Mike, you've presented a lot of circumstantial evidence, but none of it is proof.

Amusing you consider Curtis Mayfield a "one-hit wonder." You know Hendrix is a 1HW too, right?

And Styx, Journey, REO? They will never make the HoF. They never did anything new and they never raised the bar for music (unless you count displaying lighters at concerts ground-breaking).

[MikeNoun]

Lots of British artists in the HOF, but Diego's point (and I agree with it) is that the Rock And Roll Hall Of fame is slanted towards American artists, so much so that they founded a British Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame in 2004, but it wasn't a location, it was simply a British awards show. Like the American HOF, the British HOF hoped to get enough funding to build a real hall of fame building like that in Ohio, but it never caught on. They pulled the plug on the Brit ceremonies in 2006 after only 3 years.

The British version had many of the same artists as the U.S., version, but if the British hall of fame had continued, they would have acknowledged their big bands of the 80's and 90's, like The Smiths, Stone Roses, Blur, and especially Oasis, who were a global phenomenon for many years, with dozens of #1 hits all around the world, just never in America.

Foreigner was half British and half American (3 of each), hence the name Foreigner. Very talented, great band, great vocals. Sadly, the late 1970's and early 1980's, before MTV took over, was known as the Corporate Rock era, where radio stations were taking kickbacks and bribes to play certain groups, and critics thought the music was over produced, power chord heavy, and had little staying power.

But they were wrong.

Whether you like or dislike them, there's no denying Foreigner, Boston, The Cars, Styx, REO, Cheap Trick, ELO, and Supertramp defined FM radio in the late 70's, at a time when rock fans were fighting against disco and punk music.

I think eventually, all those "corporate rock" groups will be inducted, and I believe they deserve to be.

[Alvin]

Just a short time ago - today - while driving I had Sirius channel #26 "ClsVinyl" aka "Classic Vinyl - '60s & '70s Classic Rock" tuned in and the DJ Chick said "...coming to you from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame..." and reminded me of this thread.

Here's the channel link http://www.siriusxm.com/classicvinyl

And the posted info on the DJ Chick below:

"12:00 pm - 6:00 pm
Classic Vinyl with Nancy Alden
Nancy Alden has spent her entire radio career in Northeast Ohio from Akron to Cleveland. She is thrilled to share her 30 year knowledge of Classic Vinyl from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame studios. She is a dedicated animal advocate and volunteer at area pet shelters"

Personally doesn't matter to me if any of them are in or out of the HOF, I enjoy them all the same. Don't need some special interest mouthpieces deciding & dictating to me what was good enough then to be awarded now. Simple for me as I've no skin in the game now, and am but a lifetime fan/consumer/audiophile/enthusiast/collector of most all of the groups discussed here productions over the years.

They - HOF - can throw their party wo me Thxs. Won't lose a moments sleep either way.

[KS circutguy]

The real question should be;
When will the Rock and Role Hall of Fame be in the Rock and Wall Hall of Fame!

[Alvin]

Here's a thought - take any of the Music discussed here and recall how many times you've bought the exact same groups/music/albums/songs in how many different formats?

Ex: Reel-To-Reel, Vinyl 78's & '33 RPM LP's, 8-Track, Cassette, VHS, Compact Disc, DTS Digital Surround, DVD & Blue Ray, Digital Download, Streaming Online.

I've gathered this quick list from my own personal archives and have many duplicates in various formats from over the years.

[MikeNoun]

Curtis Mayfield was a civil rights activist, and a songwriter. His actual chart success as a solo artist was marginal to say the least. Not saying he was awful, but to be inducted into the HOF before other artists that were FAR more worthy is an insult. Eric Clapton, The Lovin Spoonful, James Taylor, Queen, AC/DC, they all waited a few years after they were eligible. And yet Curtis Mayfield has been inducted twice (yes, twice), once with The Impressions, and once as a solo artist. Mayfield had one album that hit #1 because it was a movie soundtrack. He never scored a top 15 album on the regular charts (but managed a few on the R&B charts), and he had two songs that cracked the top 10 (a few more in the R&B charts), and that's over a 27 year recording career. His chief success came in songwriting. He eventually deserved to go into the HOF, but not before the other groups mentioned above.

Using the criteria that allowed Mayfield to get into the HOF, I guess Harold Faltermeyer (Beverly Hills Cop Soundtrack) should be inducted into the HOF too.

What I presented is not circumstantial, the grudge Jann Wenner holds has been relayed in dozens of books. I'm a bit of a rock junkie, and have over 200 books (many are biographies) on many different artists (The Beatles and Led Zeppelin being my personal favorites). I've read biographies from Elton John to Heart, Pink Floyd to Keith Richards, Guns 'n Roses to The Eagles, Van Halen to Freddie Mercury, plus probably 75 books just on The Beatles (as a group, and solo), from insiders books to mainstream rock authors.

McCartney had to wait years to get inducted because of the grudge Jann Wenner had against him. Wenner never forgave McCartney for being a no-show when The Beatles were inducted.

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by Diego

And Styx, Journey, REO? They will never make the HoF. They never did anything new and they never raised the bar for music (unless you count displaying lighters at concerts ground-breaking).

But you have to remember, sometimes it's the concert experience that makes the group legendary. Journey packed 'em in for many, many years, they were probably one of the best live bands ever. Even if you dislike their sound, there's no denying the impact they had in America (and elsewhere). They had 6 top 10 albums in a row, and they virtually invented the power ballad (some may say that's a bad thing!). Journey were (are) great artists. Steve Perry had a phenomenal voice, Neal Schon is highly underrated (he exchanged licks with Carlos Santana when he was a member of Santana), and Steve Smith is one of most respected drummers around (he can play jazz, big band, swing, rock, and has done hundreds of drum clinics).

Personally, I'm just a casual fan of Journey. I appreciate them, and think they should go into the HOF someday.

True story: Back around 1981, the biggest Chicago radio station (WLUP) had a call in vote for the best rock band of all time. It came down to The Rolling Stones....and Journey.

Journey won.

I was stunned. I voted for The Beatles and Led Zeppelin.

[71 T/A]

Diego, Jimi Hendrix is a one hit wonder?In a vh1 poll with over 600 artists responding he was vited third best artist of all time after the beatles n stones. Considering the beatles n stones were groups you can make a case that hes pethaps the greatest rock artist of all time.

[MikeNoun]

I think Diego was being sarcastic here.....when I called Curtis Mayfield a one-hit wonder, it ignores the fact that he WAS influential, but in my opinion, nowhere NEAR as influential as Jimi Hendrix (who was also not a chart topper). But that's apples and oranges.

Back to Foreigner.....

I thought "Head Games" was actually their best album. I'm always surprised to hear the fans place their debut album as their best, followed by "Double Vision", then "4", but I thought "Head Games" was solid start to finish.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Diego

...

And Styx, Journey, REO? They will never make the HoF. They never did anything new and they never raised the bar for music ...

But ABBA did?

You're not being serious, are you?

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Just a short time ago - today - while driving I had Sirius channel #26 "ClsVinyl" aka "Classic Vinyl - '60s & '70s Classic Rock" tuned in and the DJ Chick said "...coming to you from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame..." and reminded me of this thread.

Here's the channel link http://www.siriusxm.com/classicvinyl

And the posted info on the DJ Chick below:

"12:00 pm - 6:00 pm
Classic Vinyl with Nancy Alden
Nancy Alden has spent her entire radio career in Northeast Ohio from Akron to Cleveland. She is thrilled to share her 30 year knowledge of Classic Vinyl from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame studios. She is a dedicated animal advocate and volunteer at area pet shelters"

Personally doesn't matter to me if any of them are in or out of the HOF, I enjoy them all the same. Don't need some special interest mouthpieces deciding & dictating to me what was good enough then to be awarded now. Simple for me as I've no skin in the game now, and am but a lifetime fan/consumer/audiophile/enthusiast/collector of most all of the groups discussed here productions over the years.

They - HOF - can throw their party wo me Thxs. Won't lose a moments sleep either way.

Originally Posted by Will

But ABBA did? You're not being serious, are you?

Interesting that one of the bands/songs during my in & out of Sirius musicality experience today was BTO - Bachman Turner Overdrive, which I've enjoyed from yr1. Point is - are they, BTO in the HOF & not Foreigner? FWIW - Foreigner fan here also, so...

Head Games by HOF?

[INJUNBOY]

The fact that Deep Purple and Bad Company alone are not in there makes it is hard to take it serious!