[ken73]

Has anybody here (Or know of) done an LS swap into one of these cars?

[b-man]

Yes, and done in quite a first-class way:http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=676268

[rexs73gto]

Please DON'T Pontiac's deserve Pontiac engines. A well built Pontiac engine will run as good if not better then a chebby engine.

[se428bandit]

Ken, don't put an LS engine in a Pontiac. Do I need to ride down to the house and talk you out of it?

[Scarebird]

sure, keep an underpowered engine that was long in the tooth when it was new vs. a state of the art powerplant that has double the horsepower, twice the mileage and 200 pounds lighter...

If this was a Super Duty or something like that I would keep it stock - but it is not.

[rexs73gto]

I'm glad someone else thinks the way i do about putting a chebby engine in there Proud Pontiac , I'm seem to be almost alone when I say don't ruin your Pontiac with one of those engines. It may be the way some are going but if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you do it to?? Stay Pontiac in your Pontiac. Then those who want to put a chebby engine in , let them buy a chebby & go over to that side & leave the real Pontiac people with the real Pontiac engines in their Pontiac's.

[camerjeff]

I would not put a LX engine in any Classic car that I wasn't planning on using as a daily driver. I just don't see the point.
But if the planned use is as a daily driver it is hard to argue with the Power, MPG, and reliability of the LS engines.
Our G8 GT has opened my eyes to them. My wife really want's a Jaguar MK II, from the 60's, And she even found the Daimler version the 250 Sedan near by, original no rust but has a bad Borg Warner Automatic Trans in it. If I do buy it for her, it will most likely get a LS 4L80 swap. As she seems to be unable to remember to set the Choke on any of our Carb'd cars, then procedes to flood them out on a cold start. I have had to talk her through Starting our 78 Catalina Safari 3 times this summer!!!!!! And all you have to do is push the gas peddle down once! And turn the key!
So if I do buy the car all the British car people will hate me, but the little 2.5 liter Hemi V-8 will stay with the car in case anyone want's to return it to stock later on.
So I do understand it from that perspective, But if it is just a weekend and fair weather cruiser, I don't see the point of swapping out the original engine. It usually involves a lot of work and $$$, decreases the value of the car, and makes it harder to resell later on.

[Scarebird]

GM LS Series =/= Chevy

Individual division engines went out in the early 80's WTFU.

[teeraven]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

sure, keep an underpowered engine that was long in the tooth when it was new vs. a state of the art powerplant that has double the horsepower, twice the mileage and 200 pounds lighter...

If this was a Super Duty or something like that I would keep it stock - but it is not.

Exactly. In all honesty, the purist attitude is one of the reasons I don't post here more. If someone wants an iron block and carb, then I'd prefer to see a Pontiac over a cheap SBC. SBCs are as boring as can be lol. But for what you get with a LS, it would cost a fortune to get the same out of a Pontiac and even with a $5000 AL block it would still be 100 lbs heavier. I know because I've priced all of this for my 67. I'm keeping a Pontiac in it, but I've got EFI and a 6 speed for it. If the AL blocks were lighter I'd spring for one, but I'll stick with a stock block.

I have 2 vehicles that came with LS engines, and 4 swaps. IMO they are the best V8 design out there. You just can't beat them for price, power potential, durability, efficiency, size, weight, etc. I pieced together a 6.0 and t56 for my 69 Firebird. I have $800 invested in them. That's not exactly common pricing, but it costs much more to add EFI and a 6 speed to a Pontiac.

So OP, swap away. There should be plenty of options out there for swap parts for that body style.

[se428bandit]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

sure, keep an underpowered engine that was long in the tooth when it was new vs. a state of the art powerplant that has double the horsepower, twice the mileage and 200 pounds lighter...

If this was a Super Duty or something like that I would keep it stock - but it is not.

Let's compare apples to apples. If the LS engine is so great why is Ford making the same HP out of a 5.0 engine that GM is getting out of a 6.2 engine? Fords 3.7 V6 is makes the same HP the 2002 T/As with the 5.7 LS engine.
So with your thinking those older LS must be "long in the tooth" and the Ford 3.7 is state of the art and a better engine, it has to be lighter and better on gas. So maybe Ken should look for a Ford engine for that Pontiac. If you would have read the post, you would see Ken is a friend of mine. I thought the " drive down to your house" would have gave that away.

[camerjeff]

The LS engine is long in the tooth, and out of production for at least 2 model years, the Gen V engine is what is currently produced.

And to compare apples to apples compare what the cost is to upgrade that Ford DOHC V-8 with a better Cam and compare that with the old long in the tooth LS or Gen V engines.

I don't have an issue with a larger engine if it still meets the HP & MPG goals, The DOHC engines are much more difficult to swap into other chassis as the Upper end width can cause issues.

And I know most will not agree with me, but the Last SBC Chevy's Built were the LT series engines. They were the last engines that could trace anything back to the original SBC of 1955. And if you drive by any GM engine plant they do not sat "Tonawanda Chevy Engine" They say Tonawanda GM Powertrain, or Romulus, or ST Catherines, Springhill ect.. They haven't called them Chevy engines in Years, Chevy dealers or Chevy fans may call them Chevy engines, but I do not agree.
And no I don't work for GM, I do work for a Supplier that sells equipment to GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, and Cummins in this Country.

Maybe someone that works for GM can correct me if I am wrong on this last

[fiedlerh]

IMHO, do what you want to your own car, but...
If it's low production, a desirable drive train, and numbers matching, best to keep it stock, or something that could easily be put back to stock.
If it's common, NOM, or low demand, have at it. Most engine swaps could be put back to stock if needed.

[teeraven]

Originally Posted by se428bandit

Let's compare apples to apples. If the LS engine is so great why is Ford making the same HP out of a 5.0 engine that GM is getting out of a 6.2 engine? Fords 3.7 V6 is makes the same HP the 2002 T/As with the 5.7 LS engine.
So with your thinking those older LS must be "long in the tooth" and the Ford 3.7 is state of the art and a better engine, it has to be lighter and better on gas. So maybe Ken should look for a Ford engine for that Pontiac. If you would have read the post, you would see Ken is a friend of mine. I thought the " drive down to your house" would have gave that away.

You want to compare apples to apples and then you compare a new V6 with a 13 year old LS1? It would be more accurate to compare Fords new V6 with GMs new V6. The new Camaro V6 is 3.6L rated at 320 hp, the Mustang V6 is 3.7L rated at 300. So the GM engine wins. But these are just OEM ratings and none of that has anything to do with comparing a 650 pound carbureted Pontiac with a 380-450 lb fuel injected LS.

As far as comparing the Coyote 5.0s to a GM, it should be compared to the new LT1 since they are both the latest engines. I haven't had any experience with either so I can't say anything about them. But lets compare apples to apples in regard to the LS engines commonly being swapped. 4.8/5.3/LS1/6.0 engines should be compared to 4.6 and 5.4 modular Ford engines. I've worked on plenty of both, and the "LS" engine is hands down the better design. Smaller packaging, less problems, better head design, way more aftermarket support, etc.

[rexs73gto]

I agree the new chevy engine is a great engine but I am a purest , I drive Pontiac because it's a Pontiac. But camerjeff is wrong, even Dr. Jamie when he was interviewed when they did a piece one getting to build your own Corvette engine, he said & this is as close but not a direct quote, he said Chevy is very proud of their new engine because of how much HP. & TQ. the new chevy engine makes & how great the gas mileage is with it. When ever he talked about the new LS engine he called it the new CHEVY engine not the new corporate engine. He should know as he is/was the lead engineer for that engine & is now the head of performance div. If not mistaken. So if the person who is/was the head of that div. called it a Chevy engine then what do you call it. Pontiac engines can be made to run with the LS engine although it is a bit heavier it is the engine that belongs there. The heads of Pontiac were at the time ,,,, starting in 77 when GM said they wanted to use everyone engine in all of the cars were dead set against it. The fought with the heads of GM (chevy) about putting another engine under the hood of their cars but were finally told they had to & then no other talks were had. Plus I'm just 1 of the people who were upset with GM. If your old enough to remember the 1st division to be forced to install a chevy engine in the cars were Olds. There was over 10K people who filed a class action suit to force GM to buy those cars back & then most got a car with an Olds engine in the cars that were left with them. I worked at an Olds dealer during all that. I can't tell you how upset some of our customers where during that time. & the bulk of our Olds customers were 65+ years old. Some got really nasty too. Again it is your car & you will do what you want , but all I can say is I'm a purest & when I go to a car show of any kind & see a Pontiac with anything under the hood other then a Pontiac engine I don't look at it no matter how good it looks or what model it is, I just walk away from it with out giving it a second look. I also judge a lot of shows in my area & when I see anything other then a Pontiac engine under the hood I always count it down in points just for that reason, & i know a lot of other judges do to. So keep that in mind for your choice to.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

I agree the new chevy engine is a great engine but I am a purest , I drive Pontiac because it's a Pontiac. But camerjeff is wrong, even Dr. Jamie when he was interviewed when they did a piece one getting to build your own Corvette engine, he said & this is as close but not a direct quote, he said Chevy is very proud of their new engine because of how much HP. & TQ. the new chevy engine makes & how great the gas mileage is with it. When ever he talked about the new LS engine he called it the new CHEVY engine not the new corporate engine. He should know as he is/was the lead engineer for that engine & is now the head of performance div. If not mistaken. So if the person who is/was the head of that div. called it a Chevy engine then what do you call it. Pontiac engines can be made to run with the LS engine although it is a bit heavier it is the engine that belongs there. The heads of Pontiac were at the time ,,,, starting in 77 when GM said they wanted to use everyone engine in all of the cars were dead set against it. The fought with the heads of GM (chevy) about putting another engine under the hood of their cars but were finally told they had to & then no other talks were had. Plus I'm just 1 of the people who were upset with GM. If your old enough to remember the 1st division to be forced to install a chevy engine in the cars were Olds. There was over 10K people who filed a class action suit to force GM to buy those cars back & then most got a car with an Olds engine in the cars that were left with them. I worked at an Olds dealer during all that. I can't tell you how upset some of our customers where during that time. & the bulk of our Olds customers were 65+ years old. Some got really nasty too. Again it is your car & you will do what you want , but all I can say is I'm a purest & when I go to a car show of any kind & see a Pontiac with anything under the hood other then a Pontiac engine I don't look at it no matter how good it looks or what model it is, I just walk away from it with out giving it a second look. I also judge a lot of shows in my area & when I see anything other then a Pontiac engine under the hood I always count it down in points just for that reason, & i know a lot of other judges do to. So keep that in mind for your choice to.

The LS series is NOT a chevy engine it is trademarked by GM, not chevy.
It is a true corporate GM engine, I've been in this discussion before and when GM trademarks it, it isn't a chevy engine.

Chevy no longer owns, makes, or designs powerplants. GM Powertrain is the corporate supplier to every GM division, be it buick, chevy, cadillac or GMC. It's now the same as the Hydramatic division was for many years. Hydramatic made transmissions for all GM divisions. GM powertrain now makes all the engines for all GM divisions. Chevy owners may like to take credit for the LS series engine, but the truth is from design to manufacturing, GM Powertrain, not chevy is the designer and manufacturer of all current powerplants in GM cars and trucks.

Here's the proof in this picture below:



I do agree with Rex about keeping the Stratostreak powerplant in the cars it came in though.

I've swapped Pontiac V8s into chevy malibu/chevelles, Jeeps, Toyota Land Cruisers. Fans of those original powerplants would probably shudder upon opening the hoods and finding a Pontiac engine in them. I believed in every swap I improved the vehicle same as the OP believes an LS swap would improve his car.

Believe it or not, some of the chevy purists do not like people doing LS swaps in cars originally equipped with SB or BB chevy classic cars either.

Many people claim they choose LS engine because of the fuel mileage, it's one of the first excuses they use. If you drove the car everyday it would take you 20 years to recoup the money spent on the swap to just break even.

I own an LS2 05 GTO and it's a great engine. Would I put one in my 73 T/A? That would never happen. I also wouldn't swap a 455 into my 05 GTO.

In the end it's all about opinions. There is no way me, or anyone else can dictate what the owners of any cars, can do with their cars. If they honestly believe their swap is an improvement over the original engine, I'm probably not going to change their mind.

[camerjeff]

Brad well said, you stated my opinion better than I did. And I probably would not put a LS engine in any of my old Pontiac's.
I do consider driving the older cars with the original type engine part of the cars charm. But I also can see other points of view on the topic.

[Grand73Am]

I have no problem with someone putting whatever engine they want in their car. It may not be what I would do, but who cares? It isn't my car.

But, I think sometimes people don't realize how much it costs and how much time, work, and modification it takes to swap in an LS. Some guys make it sound like it doesn't cost much and is easy. Of course, if you have read through some of the excellent threads on LS swaps in the forums, that actually shows all the expense and work involved, you'd know it's not cheap or easy.

I haven't done an LS swap, but have done TPI and LT1 swaps in tri-five Chevys years ago. I imagine it's about the same, except the LS has a different mounting setup. In addition to acquiring a good used or rebuilt engine, I remember having to buy an expensive new wiring harness for the engine that eliminated all the unnecessary wires that are in a factory harness, to make the wiring simpler. Still, it's a lot of wiring to do. Had to buy a computer that's programmed correctly for the application, or if you have the original computer from your new engine, you have to get it "re-flashed". Another expense. Had to get a new gas tank set up for the in-tank electric fuel pump(more wiring and expense). Had to get electric fans and wiring for the cooling. The LS mounts differently, so needs special motor mounts. Normally, you'd use the overdrive transmission that comes with the LS, to get all the mileage advantage, so that's more expense. The new transmission will probably need a modified or new crossmember to mount it. Then there's the speedo adaptation. You'd need to modify the shifter for the OD trans. There will be fuel line re-routing too. Radiator and heater hose changes. Maybe a new radiator. Might have to do some mods to make the pulleys and accessories fit the chassis. Make the a/c work. Power steering adaptations. Then, you'll at least need some new exhaust downpipes or headers for it. Might have to change the oil pan to one that clears the chassis and steering, which usually means a different oil pump too. So, that's just a quick summary, and there's probably many other odds and ends needed to complete it.

It's probably pretty nice when all is done. So, if you can afford all the parts, and don't mind doing all that work, or paying someone else to do it for you, then I hope it goes well for you.

As Brad said, it'll take quite a while to recover your costs in gas mileage savings, if that's the main reason for doing it. Of course, people also say it's for the extra power and "dependability". The dependability part is funny to me, since it's like people weren't able to drive hundreds of thousands of miles with the old engines? How did we get along without an LS?

Personally, I don't want all that extra complication or expense. I like that my 70's cars are simple and parts are inexpensive. I like that everything fits like it should as it is. So, I just try to make the original type setups work well, with a few improvements and be happy with that.

[BR57]

This old thread has some valuable and seems like new to many information on the history of Chevrolet style engines being factory installed in Pontiacs from as far back as 1955.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=681705

[rexs73gto]

As I stated I to can't tell him what to put in his car but the same thing Grand73AM said it costs a lot to do it, & the reason of they want the extra power & HP. My 462 (455+.30) with some extra parts , being E-heads , a RAIV blue print cam (crane) Eagle H-beam rods , SRP forged pistons, Eldo. RPM performer intake , Melling M54F oil pump, dbl. roller timing chain & gears & Pertronix ign. with a Q-jet on top puts out 533 HP & in my 73 GTO with an M-22 4 spd. & 3:73 rear end the car goes 11:72 @ 119 1/4 mile. The best part is with all the machine work & parts it cost me just under $ 7500.00. I did all the labor to install but even if I'd had some one else install it & do the break in it would only add about another $ 300.00, if your lucky the LS & all the parts needed to install it in the same car would be about $ 11000.00. But if you had someone install an LS it would be another 10 or so hours if they can do it that quick, adds about another $ 1000.00. How many miles do you have to drive to make that pay off.

[Scarebird]

$11,000? nonsense. EROD crate motor (LS3 6.2 liter motor,PCM, cats and other stuff) with Pace Performance pulley setup and LS conversion clutch/bellhousing ran me about $9k. Auto would have been $800 cheaper

Hardest thing was fabbing custom brackets as my 79 used the Pontiac/Olds clamshell lowers.

Putting it bluntly, if you have not done this conversion - STFU, as some of us HAVE and reap the rewards very time we drive and know exactly what it took to get there...