FAQ |
Members List |
Social Groups |
Calendar |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#241
|
||||
|
||||
Didn't Jim Hand come to many similar conclusions testing on the same platform for many years?
__________________
1971 Pontiac Trans Am Cameo White 1968 Firebird 400 coupe, Verdoro Green w/black vinyl top 1968 Firebird 400 convertible, Verdoro Green w/black top 1970 Buick Skylark Custom convertible(driver) Fire Red 1972 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 Royal Blue |
#242
|
|||
|
|||
Equipment on my “71” Lemans wagon
1. Continental tight 10” converter purchased in 1997 – one of the first of the true tight 10” 3200 converters. Flash stalls to 3200 at full throttle. 2. 473 cubic inch engine - +.060, stock N crank stroked +.040 3. 10.14 static CR runs on 91/92 octane pump gas exclusively 4. Standard hydraulic cam designed in about 1975-1980 – 234 intake duration with .325 lobe lift, 244 exhaust with .340 lobe lift, on a 112 LS with intake installed at 108.5 5. Variable valve timing from Rhoads. (V Max with Super lube grooves on outside) 6. Stock HE I 7. 1977 350 Q jet by Cliff f 8. RPM with the secondary divider cut down exactly as shown in my Pontiac book 9. 6X-4 heads ported exactly as shown in my book except bowl enlarged to 1.72” rather then 1.69 to pick up flow – flow numbers below. Ports purposely kept small as possible for max torque throughout entire RPM range – average of 170 cc per port and definitely no “choke” at the RPM we run. HS 1.65 roller rockers 10. 3.55 gears, 28” Mickey Thompson DOT ET radials – shift at 5750 both gears. 11. Factory 7 blade fan with factory style thermo clutch 12. Dr. Gas 3” X crossover, 3” pipes, and 3” Goerlich mufflers which added about 15# – car weight with driver was 4060-4065# with the larger mufflers – 4050# with regular Dynomax units. 13. Staged at 1800 on the foot brake – no line lock - went to floor to launch. T-400 governor set at 5750. 14. Note: The original Wolverine WG-5059 cam had been replaced with a Bullet cam after some 10 years of bracket racing and street driving. The replacement cam measured a little short on intake duration so Bullet had me return it so they could recheck it. I had upped the intake to 235 from the Wolverine 234. It measured a little short at Bullet but I recognized it was probably a normal deviation. I have attached a copy of their measurements for information. Again, the intake was ordered to be 235. Air flow @ 28”– intake/exhaust (port volume – ave 170 cc) .050 = 42/29 .1 = 78/70 .2 = 150129 .3 = 195/168 .4 = 236/193 .5 = 264/211 .55 = 267/218 .6 = 268/223 I built this car for street use and bracket racing, and stressed consistency for track use. How consistent? Here is a set of four time slips run over a two hour period - was running the Bullet cam – no measurable difference at the track from the original Wolverine. Double click to read the time slips easier - the board would not allow a larger display! Car 5462. Jim Hand Last edited by Jim Hand; 03-28-2016 at 05:04 PM. |
#243
|
||||
|
||||
Thanks Jim, good to see you posting these days!.....Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#244
|
||||
|
||||
The 455 Super Duty is now turn key and ready for the dyno. We primed it with oil about an hour ago, and bolted down the intake.
We ran into a few minor issues, one was the valley pan being "sprung", which was probably our fault as we literally had to chisel it off the engine it has so much glue holding it in place. I also discovered that the intake manifold ports were not ported anywhere near the size of the runners, and not even close to gasket matched. I spent about an hour cleaning up the runner entrance on the intake closer to the actual port size of the heads, but stayed a little smaller all the way around as it would have taken pretty extensive porting and going back pretty far into the runners to get an exact match.........Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#245
|
||||
|
||||
Some more cam testing at the track from THE MAN
http://forums.hotrod.com/high-perfor...s-by-jim-hand/
__________________
68 GTO,3860# Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55’s 13.86 @ 100 Old combo: 462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's. 1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH New combo: 517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5” 4000 stall,3.42's 636HP/654TQ 1.452 10.603 @ 125.09 http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-GTO...lip-31594.html |
#246
|
||||
|
||||
So when's dyno day Cliff?
__________________
Robert 69 Firebird-462/Edel round ports/currently running the Holley Sniper/4sp/3.23posi/Deluxe Int/pwr st/vintage air/4wl disc( a work in progress-always ) http://youtu.be/eaWBd3M9MN4 |
#247
|
||||
|
||||
Don't know yet, looks like next week, trying to get together with the owner so he can be there for the testing......Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#248
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Man that "generic boring" cam sounds somewhat close in specs to the venerable 068 Pontiac cam...? No wonder it ran well...LOL An Olds w/ a Pontiac grind running well.... I've seen the same grind for a SBC, also, no wonder, it flat works!
__________________
1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A. I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977. Shut it off Shut it off Buddy, I just shut your Prius down... Last edited by 77 TRASHCAN; 03-29-2016 at 01:15 PM. |
#249
|
||||
|
||||
Dyno day today. All went well, the guys at KRE had the big 455 Super Duty bolted down and running it in under an hour.
We made a "base-line" pull without doing any tuning and were nicely rewarded with 433hp/516tq, total timing was 26 degrees and way rich for fuel delivery with the factory metering rods in the SD Q-jet. Did a quick metering rod change, bumped up the timing 4 degrees and power jumped to 445hp/526tq. Another quick metering rod change and 2 degrees more timing and it made 457.8hp and 533.4tq. Dyno sheet from the last pull attached. I'd add here that we didn't chase the power and stayed conservative with total timing at 32 degrees. We could have spent all day with this deal and squeezed out a few more ponies, but that wasn't the goal for this project. It's going into a street driven car so the goal was more to make sure the engine was sound and no leaks, than to spend all day tweaking on it for bragging rights. It idled nearly smooth at 750rpm's making 13" vacuum, plenty for power brakes. There was just a hint of something going on in the exhaust note like it may have a little cam in there, but nothing to indicate that it would make 1hp/cid in pretty much "stock" trim. Just to go back over the engine specs again since my thread got "de-railed for nearly a dozen pages. It's a 1974 Pontiac Super Duty 455, Eagle rods, Ross flat top pistons, exactly zero decked, custom ground HR camshaft 230/236/112, 1.65 rocker arms, factory cast iron Super Duty intake, factory 7044273 Super Duty Q-jet carburetor, factory Super Duty distributor (points). The heads had some port work done to them in a previous life, but we did not flow test them......Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#250
|
||||
|
||||
Dyno day
Outstanding!!!!!
Gerry
__________________
1968 Firebird 400, 068 cam, TH400 & 13" Continental Converter, Auburn posi with 3:08 factory gears, Cliff's Q-jet resting on a 68 factory iron intake, DUI HEI and Ram Air pans and RARE Long Branch Manifolds |
#251
|
||||
|
||||
Did you use the RA manifolds on the dyno or headers?
|
#252
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#253
|
||||
|
||||
Great results! Thanks for taking the time to share the build and results.
|
#254
|
||||
|
||||
Great job Cliff, maybe there is hope for me to hit 1HP per cu in after all. I have the same cam but my heads flowed 250/220 and it is with headers. I would be excited to see similar results. Thanks for going though all the questions and still providing your dyno results.
|
#255
|
|||
|
|||
Good show thanks for the entire thread and build up information.
|
#256
|
||||
|
||||
Thanks guys, the dyno test went very well, best part it didn't leak a single drop of oil anyplace, and had excellent oil pressure throughout the pulls, no unusual noises, etc.
We used a set of round port Tri-Y headers they had in the dyno room, not the cast iron manifolds, more as a convenience to get the exhaust to exit the dyno room more than anything else. I glad we have closure on it, they are a LOT of work, this one dragged out about 5 months start to finish as we had a lot of obstacles to overcome from the ill fated previous build.......Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#257
|
|||
|
|||
Great results Cliff. Do you think with 10.5:1 compression and a bit more cam and an HEI, it would squeak it over 500hp with the same manners? I've said it a hundred times but it's just a shame GM never let the super duty shine like it should have before the gas crunch in the 70s.
__________________
-1967 GTO HO Restomod. PKMM 433ci, SilverSport T56 Magnum 6spd, Moser 9", SC&C and a bunch of other pro touring goodies - Build Thread http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...615847&page=23 |
#258
|
||||
|
||||
[QUOTE=Cliff R;5554054...but currently we are getting it done pretty good, we drive/race a half dozen cars out of our shop that are Pontiac powered, all of them are at or have exceeded any and all of our expectations for them in every area.........Cliff[/QUOTE]
See that's the problem. Great results, yet dis-agreement from only a few others. When others' do it different, including my sorry approach, there's a buffet of results (performance parameters) that appear excellent, and the other attributes; some good enough particularly with rose colored glasses. Like my case: it's all just greaat, except washing the CYLs with a super rich mixture to suffer the low idle Vacuum. Sure don't want to lose the attained great attributes upon a recommended cam change that relies on accurate DESCRIPTION of other fells's results. Example: Cliff advises (wisely) that i should use a 112 LSA, parked straight-up. Well i gots that but probably 10 degrees to much duration. Coworked (race engine developer) thinks i got a manifold-head vacuum leak. Vizard advises (smugly) the popular V8 world to use "128" rule of thumb, that i should use 104 LSA (even103 for my low compression) with the right duration. Worlds apart.
__________________
12.24/111.6MPH/1.76 60'/28"/3.54:1/SP-TH400/469 R96A/236-244-112LC/1050&TorkerI//3850Lbs//15MPG/89oct Sold 2003: 12.00/112MPH/1.61 60'/26"x3.31:1/10"/469 #48/245-255-110LSA/Q-Jet-Torker/3650Lbs//18MPG 94oct Sold 1994: 11.00/123MPH/1.50 60'/29.5"x4.10:1/10"/469 #48/245-255-110LSA/Dual600s-Wenzler/3250Lbs//94oct |
#259
|
||||
|
||||
We see a lot of Pontiac dyno sheets with a dip in power before peak.
Why is that? |
#260
|
|||
|
|||
450hp at 4700rpm! That's a street engine!
__________________
466 Mike Voycey shortblock, 310cfm SD KRE heads, SD "OF 2.0 cam", torker 2 373 gears 3200 Continental Convertor best et 10.679/127.5/1.533 60ft 308 gears best et 10.76/125.64/1.5471 |
Reply |
|
|