[Tom Vaught]

My Vert came with the 37 amp alternator so I agree with that statement.

Tom V.

ps My understanding was the 64 Alt/Power Steering (cast iron) Bracket was the only mount for that option in 64. The Non P/S stuff not sure about.

[John V.]

The special equipment Sales Code 674 got you the 55A alt in a '64 Tempest.

It also included the HD 61 amp-hr HD Battery.

I believe the manifest code for the HD 61 amp-hr battery was "C".

The manifest code for the 55A alt was "B".

When I published my KC/Balt decode article, I believed that it was possible to get a HD battery as an option in the GTO based on old published reference material, I believe in particular the Resto Guide.

But since that time, I came to conclude the HD 61 amp-hr battery was standard in the GTO. It is possible that this was not true very early year since I have no records of real early cars from KC or Balt (Pontiac docs don't list the Battery manifest code and I've never a Fremont doc for a GTO that did not list the "*T60 Batt H/D" indicating it as standard content with the one exception being my own Nov. '63 Fremont built GTO, the T60 not listed. I have a doc on a Fremont GTO built a couple days before mine that does list the "*T60 BATT H/D" but that GTO was also equipped with AC so would have gotten the 55A alt and 61 amp-hr battery for that reason.

All KC & Balt GTOs that I have docs for list the Battery as code "C" so I surmise that this is the 61 amp-hr battery and was standard in the GTO at least from a certain point on.

A 70 amp-hr battery was the HD choice for the big Pontiacs but not used in any Tempest, the 61 amp-hr was it.

You could get the 61 amp-hr battery without the 55A alt by ordering Sales Code 582.

The std. Tempest 2 bbl V8 battery was the Delco 458, code "A". The 6 cyl Tempest got the Delco 554, code "B".

The HD battery was the Delco 558, code "C" and all Tempests got this battery and the 55A alt when ordered with AC and also got them both when ordering the HD alt under Sales Code 674.

But a GTO ordered with the HD alt already had the HD battery so the only change was the alt itself. And same was true of a GTO ordered with AC, only the alt was different.

As I say, the early GTOs (and 326HOs were treated same as the GTO early and late from what I can tell) most likely got the Delco 458 53 amp-hr battery same as any other V8 Tempest. But later on, the GTO standard battery became the HD Delco 558.

I do not know when the change was made and have only judged this to be true based on my own build not listing the T60.

So you essentially had it figured out with the possible exception of the early GTOs as I outlined.

Anybody with a GTO from KC, Balt, or Fremont built prior to Dec without AC might check their PHS docs to see if they show the code "A" battery (or lack the T60 for a Fremont doc).

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by War eagle

John V. notice the Trant/Wangers car has a T on it probably indicating the transistor ignition.

The picture credits:#1 Hot Rod Dec 63 (note how far inboard alt sits on this extremely early car)
#2 Car Craft Aug 64
#3 Car Craft March 64
#4 Motor Sport Jan 64
#5 Speed mechanics Nov.64

John I see in your Smoke signals article that the alternator code "T" is actually the early V-8 with PS. Not transistor ign.

[Tom Vaught]

Lot of stuff to remember at times War Eagle.

Tom V.

[John V.]

And checks out too, the Nov. '63 Pontiac Plant built Wangers Red car PHS Manifest record does not show the Sales Code 671 Transistorized Ignition option.

It DOES list the Sales Code 501 Power Steering and as an early build would have received the 1100676 37A alt, "T" code with the two groove pulley and the twin belt arrangement just as was seen in the pic in the C&D article (with the front belt removed for whatever reason).

The Blue car got the Quick Ratio Manual Steering and the article mentions that the writer preferred the PS.

Tom, ya got that right. I've "relearned" lots of stuff about the '64 GTO that I once knew, forgot, and learned again. No way I can remember it all. I refer back to reference material all the time.

[Tom Vaught]

That is what is really great about this 64-65 GTO Forum and its posters.

Massive amounts of info backed by data from many sources.

Tom V.

ps Would be nice to know the real story why my 64 GTO was the exception to the rule in several of these posts.

You know most of the exceptions, John because we have discussed them in the past. I am sure that more will appear.

A few for the board: Mechanical Linkage from Rochester Products, Non Power Brakes, sheet says Power Brakes. 3.90 rear axle and correct 3.90 speedo-gear in trans vs build sheet says 3.23 gear, Metallic Brakes, Trunk sticker on opposite side vs everyone else, "L" camshaft vs factory "C" camshaft, No 5N on the Data Plate, you get the idea.

Tom V.

[remy30006]

Originally Posted by War eagle

remy does it have trips? Also upper alt brackets? Do you mean the upper adjust strap?

War Eagle not sure what you mean by trips. Its a 64 Lemans 326 ac power steering car. The power steering and lower alt mount looks completely different than non ac which makes me think the upper straps would be different. its missing the upper straps and water pump pulley. So I need to locate the correct ones but not sure what I'm looking for.

Also not sure how to read these manifests do I have any of these options being discussed on my GTO? I attached a picture of the manifest.

Thank you!

[John V.]

Not sure what you are asking, the Manifest record you posted is for a '64 GTO built at the Pontiac Plant.

What options are you curious about?

The Pontiac Plant Manifest is decoded by looking at each code box and adding the digit in the box to form the Sales Code.

For example, your Box No. 38 has a 2 in the box, that forms Sales Code 382.

This is the code for the GTO Package option.

Boxes 75 & 76 were used for the 2 digit portion of the Engine Code, in your case 78 means the engine assembly installed in this build was the Manual Trans 4 bbl 389 GTO engine, actual manifest code stamped on the engine assembly at the Engine Assembly Plant for this engine was 78X.

The W in the Transmission Box means the build included the M20 Muncie wide ratio 4 speed option, this code applied to all factory available axle ratios except 3.90. Code 9 was the wide ratio Muncie 4 spd used with 3.90 axle and code 8 was the very late year close ratio Muncie 4 spd which could be selected alternately but ONLY in combination with Tripower and 3.90.

When ordered, the W was supposed to be added as an additional stamped character at the Final Assembly Plant so the code on the Block would read as 78XW.

If you still have the original block, you might find that this added W was stamped haphazardly so that it might actually read as W78X or the W could be struck over the X or any number of other possibilities.

In the Production Instructions box you see SR PN GP GP.

These codes identify the manifest codes for the Front Springs, Rear Springs, Front Shocks, Rear Shocks.

All '64 GTOs got SR front springs except if it was optioned with AC.

All '64 GTOs got PN rear springs, no exceptions.

Your shock codes are the early year format and the codes are most likely shorthand for the color coding used for them. Later year, the coding was changed to the last 3 digits of the shock p/n.

Your shocks were the standard GTO shocks. Your GTO was NOT built with the Sales Code 621 Heavy Duty Springs & Shocks (which on a GTO this option ONLY changed the Shocks) nor the Sales Code 612 Rally Handling Kit.

Your Manifest includes a 1 in the left end of the "ACCY. GRPS." or accessory groups Box.

This indicates that the order for your GTO included the Sales Code 061 Basic Group option package.

The Basic Group consisted of:

Sales Code 392 Deluxe Pushbutton Radio with front fender mounted Manual Antenna.
Sales Code 412 additional custom foam added to the construction of the Tempest Bench Seat, this was NOT applicable to the Lemans Bucket Seats installed in the GTO, no special construction buckets were offered, so 412 not coded on your GTO manifest.
Sales Code 421 Two Speed Wipers with Washers
Sales Code 431 Heavy Duty Air Cleaner for the Tempest, not applicable to the GTO engines, no HD air cleaner offered for them, so 431 not coded on your GTO manifest.
Sales Code 471 Back-up Lamps in the Rear Bumper.

As expected all of these options are individually coded on your manifest.

Other options coded on your manifest are:

Sales Code 452 Tachometer
Sales Code 462 Deluxe Wheel Discs
Sales Code 624 Custom Front Seat Belts with Retractors

Front Seat Belts were made standard equipment after Dec. '63 so the price of the Sales Code 624 was reduced from $18.29 to $7.53. The Sales Code 411 standard front belts without retractors had been priced at $10.76 and when they were made standard equipment, the Base Price of all Tempest models was raised by $11 and the Sales Code 411 was removed from the Order Form (later in the year it reappeared as the Sales Code for the Wire Wheel Discs that had previously only been offered in '64 as a Dealer Accessory Package, not a factory option).

Your Pontiac Plant Data Plate on the firewall would be coded for Accessory Codes as:

2P-5N-5W

This "5 Group" accessory code system was used by Fisher Body and was only used to code options that affected the fabrication of the Body Assembly at the Fisher Body Plant.

2P coded the Back-up Lamps option
5N coded the GTO option
5W coded the Custom Front Seat Belts with Retractors option

Your Box 70 code is a bit unusual, coded 709, only other Pontiac Plant manifest that I can recall seeing with this code is the Wangers Red Car, it was approved with the special request 3.23 axle ratio.

The Box 71 code L identifies the 3.23 with the metallic brake option. That car was tested by Car & Driver and reportedly had 3.90 gears at that point, I've never understood why the order was entered for the Special Request 3.23 gears (standard gears for the Tripower GTO was 3.55 at the time this car was built so the 3.23 had to be approved as an available ratio for the combination and since it was, the Approval is indicated on the manifest).

The code 709 seemingly was to code the Safe-T-Track option but most Pontiac Plant builds with the Safe-T-Track option were coded differently.

Code 709 was intended to mean "Safe-T-Track with performance axle" and could be used for a regular Tempest order since economy and performance axle ratio choices were released as standard options but PMD did not issue a performance axle ratio for the GTO, if you wanted a ratio other than the standard release, you specified the actual desired ratio on the order and it had to then be Approved.

I suspect that the 709 was an order entry mistake by somebody that didn't understand how to specify axle ratios for a GTO.

Box 71 is coded K on yours, code K indicates the 3.23 axle ratio with standard brakes, this was the Standard Release axle ratio for the 4 bbl GTO.

I believe your manifest should have been blank in Box 69 and a 3 in Box 70 to signify the Safe-T-Track differential.

GTOs with standard brakes and open differentials would show a 1 in Box 69. GTOs with metallic brakes would show a 2 in Box 69 and a 3 in Box 70 for the Safe-T-Track (never seen one with metallic brakes and open differential although you could order it that way so they probably exist). GTOs with standard brakes and Safe-T-Track are normally blank in Box 69.

Boxes 72 & 73 indicate the tires, your 07 means your GTO was built with the 7.50x14 Red Lines. Many GTOs were built with the Whitewall tires as a no cost alternative, they are coded 06.

Paint Code VVA means it was Grenadier Red upper, Grenadier Red lower, and Black wheels (all builds with wheel cover options got Black wheels). Trim Code 19 was the Parchment interior trim.

Dealer code 12 703 means the car was sold to a Dealer in the St. Louis Zone, unfortunately I do not know the identify of Dealer no. 703 in that Zone. Mike Noun might have it, he makes awesome reproduction Window Stickers.

Sales Class B means the dealer did not use GMAC wholesale credit to finance his purchase from PMD, likely because he could not qualify, so he probably had a line of credit at his local bank, Sales Class B indicates "Other Dealer Credit". GMAC offered attractive terms to the dealers that could qualify, would show Sales Class A in that case.

The front alt strap for your 326 AC & PS Lemans is the same for any '64 V8 Tempest or big Pontiac with PS. The rear alt strap was also the same unless it had Tripower (trips) which had its own rear strap.

The alt strap on a '64 manual steer car is different and there was only one strap used.

The cast Bracket for the PS is p/n 545313.

This bracket was used on all '64 V8 Tempests and big Pontiacs with PS and also used on all of them with AC with and without PS.

The ONLY thing that changes when you add AC to the PS is the PS Pump pulley.

This pulley has 1 groove and it must align with the alt pulley groove. Earlier in this thread I discussed the pulley arrangement for the non-AC early and late PS set-ups. But the bracketry was always the same.

I'm not sure why you are saying the PS mount looks completely different on a non AC car?

The alt used with AC is 55A vs. 37A without but both were the original Delcotron Model 10DN alts, externally the same and mount the same.

Maybe post pix of the bracketry so we can see what you have.

W.E., I finally spotted the '65 alt adjustment illustration in the Resto Guide page 441, that is certainly helpful for anybody with the PS & AC combination although I don't know that it is valid for '64 since the Bracket in '64 was different but makes sense that it would be similar and they do say to put the alt against the inboard stop for initial (new belt) adjustment. I encourage others to read it for additional info regarding subsequent (worn belt) adjustment.

[1_Wild_Cat]

Nice post John V. - I got a better understanding of my own manifest out of that. Particularly the sales code and the accessory group.

Off topic and a bit of a thread hijack - but...

Were the accessory group packages priced differently than all the options added together individually? If so, does anyone know the price charged for accessory group 1?

[johnta1]

Dealer code 12 703 means the car was sold to a Dealer in the St. Louis Zone, unfortunately I do not know the identify of Dealer no. 703 in that Zone.

Travis Cadillac-Pontiac 826 Main St Peoria, IL

[John V.]

The late Eric White had price sheets. His book shows the SRP for the Group options.

According to my calculations, there was no difference in the SRP of the Group vs. the individual option prices in '64.

Attached is an older piece (may have been from 1962, I forget) that says, "Buy accessories BY THE GROUP and save!" But I don't have any pricing for individual options to compare that one to. And I don't even know if this piece was intended for dealer eyes only or reflects retail pricing.

I do have evidence that there was no difference in '64. I have copies of original (not repro) '64 Window Stickers and the options are always listed individually even in cases where all of the options from the Mirror Group or the Lamp Group are included and the pricing is always same as when that option is ordered by itself. That wouldn't make sense if the Group was discounted.

The only exception I've ever seen was an original '65 Window Sticker for a Tempest which was ordered with the Sales Code 064 Décor Group. In that case, it does not list the individual option pricing, it shows:

DECOR GROUP (empty space which won't format in post) 064 (space) 40.36
CONSISTS OF
STEERING WHEEL-DLX
MOULDINGS-DECOR
WHEEL DISCS-DLX

The Décor Mouldings could NOT be ordered individually, they only could be had with this Group so perhaps it was different for that reason.

I have often wondered if the Dealer Invoice Price was reduced when Groups were ordered.

If that was the case, the dealer could then enhance his profit or pass along savings to the retail customer. That would certainly make sense and it would incentivize dealers to order cars with Group options which was more profit to PMD too.

BTW, you can't say Accessory Group 1. To further clarify what I posted, the 06x Groups were coded at the left end of the Box, the 07x Groups were coded in the middle of the Box, and the 08x Groups were coded at the right end of the Box. The position of the digit within the Box identified the Sales Code of the specific Group.

Just like in the other Boxes, if multiple 06x Groups were ordered, you would "add" them together so if you ordered 061 and 062, you'd see a 3 at the left end of the Boc. If you ordered 081 and 084, you would see a 5 at the right end of the Box.

07x codes were used for Police Group and Taxi Group codes.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Travis Cadillac-Pontiac 826 Main St Peoria, IL

Nice, John! I should have checked your list, I only checked Ultimate

Sean had them listed but didn't have the code.

[1_Wild_Cat]

Thanks JohnV for the explanation. I don't know why - but figuring out how these cars (especially my own) came to be optioned the way they did fascinates me...

[remy30006]

John V.

You are incredible! The knowledge you have is amazing!

Thank you!

Ill get some pics of the power steering set up on the Lemans. Might be a week though, the car is 2 hours away ay my friends place. I have to get there either this weekend or next.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by remy30006

John V.

You are incredible! The knowledge you have is amazing!

Thank you!

Ill get some pics of the power steering set up on the Lemans. Might be a week though, the car is 2 hours away ay my friends place. I have to get there either this weekend or next.

X2!!!!!!

Tom V.

ps John V, I have a question for you in the 64 GTO with bench seat thread.

[mwritter]

Originally Posted by aceaceca

I have the exact same problem. I wanted to switch to the dual belt 64 set up but you cannot because of air conditioning pulleys. I have just installed a similar alternator pulley to yours. It is a tad greater in diameter than the original. My problem was initially caused, I thought, after going to a 100 amp alternator. It takes substantial more h/p to turn the thing if it is pumping out a lot of amps. However, in looking at your belt, and mine, I see you have a vented belt. I have had problems with this type of belt before. All the air gaps are for cooling the belt but in return I believe we are giving up a lot of grip. I suggest, and I am going to do the same, trying a non air gap belt. Belts grip on the two side angles and if half is missing you have obviously given up grip power. There is small enough grip surface to use so we cannot give up any potential grip area.

Bringing this back up as I have had no luck finding a non-vented belt for this application, other than the original dated-style belts (I have one for shows but I've destroyed a few and would rather not drive with one). I've been to every local parts store and can only find vented/cogged belts in stock. The cogged one I have for cross-reference is a NAPA 25-7590, .44" width and 59.57" length. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[War eagle]

Matt are you getting squeal with both belts installed and adjusted? I know that the alternator adjustment or deflection is fairly high initially on A/C cars when the belt is new, and very hard on water pump bearings. The counter force on the water pump is the A/C belt. Both belts should be on to protect the pump.
The super distance between the W/P and crank centerline to the A/C compressor is also a suspect here as my belt flops some even at 700rpm.

[mwritter]

Originally Posted by War eagle

Matt are you getting squeal with both belts installed and adjusted? I know that the alternator adjustment or deflection is fairly high initially on A/C cars when the belt is new, and very hard on water pump bearings. The counter force on the water pump is the A/C belt. Both belts should be on to protect the pump.
The super distance between the W/P and crank centerline to the A/C compressor is also a suspect here as my belt flops some even at 700rpm.

I've got the squeal with both belts and with just the Alt/PS/WP belt. I never thought about the WP as the suspect, and I sure hope it's not the culprit because I just redid the timing cover and WP gaskets. I was hoping to find a different belt and test it before reinstalling the A/C belt. I installed a rebuilt compressor at the same time as the original had a slow leak.

[aceaceca]

I just completed my 65 A/C rebuild and cured the belt squeal problem. I got a deeper and slightly larger diameter alt pulley off Ebay. I also read the manual regarding belt adjustment. Said to start with alt on full loose. Tighten belt with P/S pump. When done, apply any extra tightening with the alt adjustment. Seems to have worked as mine used to squeal terribly.
https://goo.gl/photos/CFWjgDUhQ2ZrW7tu8

[ron cozzo]

I had a hell of a time keeping belts on my A/C 64 PS tripower. Every time I'd open up the tripower the Alternator WP belt would come off. I gave up on the repro belts. I switched to AC Delco belts and most importantly, bought a belt tension gauge. To meet the spec in the service manual, those belts have to be really, really tight. If you need, I can look for the AC Delco part numbers I used.