[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by PunchT37

I used to run a blocked system with an 80# pump. No more. Swelled filters, one wiped cam [gear], many sheered roll pins in the distributor.


Run a shimmed 60# pump now with new unblocked housing.

Exactly. Anyone think Dan Whittmore was lying to me when he told me he had seen too many engines with SD 80lb pumps and blocked by pass blown off the filters or leak-swell ?
He sold me a block adapter and Moroso oil filter adapter for the Chevy tall deck filter just never used it.
Stock adapter with 60lb pump.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

Where do you get your info?????

I have run a plugged bypass, stock filter housing and ran the K&N filters for years, now run the K&P non-bypass filter. Stock block w/ 3.25 mains. I spin mine 7200-7300 every pass, drive it on the street about 500-1000 miles a year and have NEVER lost one due to oil pressure because of the bypass being plugged.. Last engine has 1300 passes before freshen.

The K&P S16 for Pontiacs/Olds does not have a bypass.

I block every engine I build. Zero oil issues.

My info ? Dan Whittmore and Smokey Yunick. Smokey did the math on what it took for paper filters to be able to filter all the oil under all conditions.

K&P DOES make a Pontiac filter with a by pass. Just called them, its a option.
Their filter would have to get to 85% clogged to actually by pass and it removes smaller particles than the best OEM filter. 7 times the flow rate. And they remove smaller particles. Only 1lb loss through the filter checked on Pro Stock engines. The restriction of their filter is the size of the pipe feeding it. The paper elements are the restriction in a paper filter including K&N. Many, many times more pressure against the media in even the best paper/ OEM filters.
You could not block the by pass in a stock adapter and never come close to actually using the by pass in the adapter unless the filter was clogged solid using the K&P. Stock as is filter adapter with the K&P with by pass is the way I will go.

You have lost several engines to grenading. How do you know it was not caused by intermittent issues trying to shove all that oil through a media that can not take it ? Not easy to find out with a engine blown to bits. I do think switching the the K&P was a good move.

[hgerhardt]

Maybe you ought to revisit the idea of modifying the pregnant bellhousing. Looking at the higher-resolution pic below, you can see that the Buick starter bumpout is stitch-welded in place. Instead of making a big mess with a plasma cutter, you could take a small die grinder (even with the bellhousing mounted to the engine) and surgically cut the welds away. Then take a fiber cutoff wheel in that die grinder and remove the excess flange that sticks out the right side. Spray some semi-gloss black paint over the cuts and the tech inspector will never realize that you modified it... especially with my original suggestion of a Firebird angled filter adapter and an A/C compressor in the way to block the view.

As to your idea of using a hose adapter mounted to the orig filter adapter, how are you going to route the hoses out of that and up the firewall to the remote filters? Those hoses are going to want to be right where your pregnant bellhousing is.

[Mike Davis]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

You have lost several engines to grenading. How do you know it was not caused by intermittent issues trying to shove all that oil through a media that can not take it ? Not easy to find out with a engine blown to bits. I do think switching the the K&P was a good move.

Just how many engines have I grenaded????

Last year in Fla I had one break a intake valve and it cracked the piston. One sleeve later and 2 new valves and it is back in the car now. Same crank, bearings, etc.

The spare that I put in for the ATL race while the other engine was out was bought from a ex-member here that had raced it for years. I did not build it or disassemble before I ran it. Did not have time. It broke a lifter bore and the piece locked 2 rods up and broke them.

Funny how I lost all these engines you say. I have been racing this car since the late 80's and have only lost 2 engines I have built. I guarantee I run a stock block harder than you ever will or ever have.In fact I will put my stock block street strip car up against your fantasy IA build any day.

[64speed]

I am gonna trade the remote setup to a member on here and just suck it up and use the smaller filter. Didn’t realize I’d have to reinvent the wheel

[taff2]

I've blocked or deleted the bypass on every Pontiac V8 I've owned, from a 13 second '72 Formula to my current 8 second race car. I've never had an oil related problem, and here's the best part - I've always used a Fram filter! Fram PH4825 is the part number, (and although Fram doesn't make this filter any more-there are other makes that do cross reference to it), it does not have an internal bypass, nor anti drainback valve, and it holds about a quart. I have run as high as 90-100 psi on a cold start, to 7000rpm on most 1/4 mile runs, and each filter stays on my race car for a full season. When cut open they have showed no distress to the filter media and have never ballooned or burst. I prefer the Fram filter to the cross referenced other makes and buy any NOS I come across on ebay, the Fram item has more oil inlet holes (8) on the top than other makes (4), and although the holes are smaller -the area of the 8 smaller holes is more than the 4 larger holes of other makes. Oh yeah, I also use the same part number Fram filter for my fuel filter and my transmission filter - testimony to the quality of the internal filter media and adhesive!
And as for filters with internal bypass valves in general, the 11 psi pressure differential will almost certainly get surpassed on a cold start up ,and probably at high rpm too - dumping unfiltered oil into your engine. I know it does this on an auto transmission and they use a much thinner oil than an engine- which is why all our trans customers have to use a non bypass remote oil filter set up with one of our trans builds if they want to retain their existing converter and oil cooler.
Having said that, I do plan on deleting the oil filter altogether on my new race engine combo ,using a filter delete plate but with a small bypass type filter plumbed in too. (this is more of a clearance problem with the oil lines to turbo downpipes and steering column than anything else)

[TinInjun]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

You have lost several engines to grenading. How do you know it was not caused by intermittent issues trying to shove all that oil through a media that can not take it ? Not easy to find out with a engine blown to bits. I do think switching the the K&P was a good move.

Grenaded? Did you see any of these engines? I have and they were far from being grenaded. None of these engines had an oil related failure. Ok Skippy. Now go work on your fantasy engine, on fantasy island, in your fantasy world.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Dan Whittmore ...

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Dan Whittmore ...

Whitmore.

[PunchT37]

People have different experiences with most all circumstances. But, my comments, as stated above, are final, as applied to me.

[64speed]

Got an oil filter adapter which tilts back towards the oil pan with no tilt front to back. Now I can run whatever filter I want so I’m good. Just FYI it was on my old 326

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Directions, here somewhere, for slotting lower bolt holes for extra clearance when needed. Top bolt pivots and the slotted lowers let you tilt the filter forward or back a little. Think it came from a Jim Hand article. Some applications it can save the day without having to buy any after market parts.

Clay

[coonhunter70]

If i were to plug the factory bypass I would want to make sure I was running oil filters with a bypass built in.

[hgerhardt]

Originally Posted by 64speed

Got an oil filter adapter which tilts back towards the oil pan with no tilt front to back. Now I can run whatever filter I want so I’m good. Just FYI it was on my old 326

So ultimately the only problem was you were using a B/F-body 90 deg adapter instead of the proper 110 deg (or whatever it actually is) A-body adapter???
Amazing how it's the simplest things sometimes.

[Sirrotica]

If i were to plug the factory bypass I would want to make sure I was running oil filters with a bypass built in.]

This is what HO did originally when they recommended the modification back in the 70s. Plug the bypass with a allen headed pipe plug, and use the LEE 2 stage filter which did have a by pass internally in the filter. The LEE filter had 2 sets of media in it and when the oil volume became too great it sent some of the flow to a coarser media that although it did filter the oil, the standard it filtered to was little better than a fine screen mesh, not the same standard the primary media used.

Some how this all gets lost in the many years since the original write up in a magazine. Now since the story has been told over and over, the little detail about ONLY using a 2 stage filter, with an internal by pass gets omitted.

LEE has been out of business for decades, so unless you stocked up on their filters, you're not doing the modification in the way it was originally intended. Many people on the site swear that it's valid to use the mod without a by pass valve in the filter. Since I never have made the modification and I don't depend on the full flow filter to actually clean the oil, the full flow filter becomes secondary and a by pass filter does the real cleaning of the oil. Actually with a by pass filter, the full flow filter could be omitted, and except for a kind of last ditch safety gate to catch something that was due to an internal engine failure, or something that someone dropped into the engine, it's not even needed. It does however plug the hole in the pressure side of the system, and is easier than trying to re-engineer the factory system, I just leave it in place for simplicity.

Years ago auto manufacturers only used a by pass filter and it was an optional piece of equipment. Building the by pass filter and installing it was more labor intensive, and it added more cost to the engine assembly. When Detroit came out with the 5 year, 50,000 mile warranty, the oil filter was considered to be essential to meet warranty requirements, and the option of running no filter whatsoever wasn't considered as viable.

Some engineer was tasked with making a low cost filter option that could be implemented on all production engines. The full flow system is what was implemented to save money, and get the engines across the 50,000 mile warranty threshold. Oil change intervals were the same as the previous by pass filter, so no advancement was made. Oil still got dirty because of inefficient filtering, but each unit now had a filter system, no longer was an oil filter an option for the majority of engines.

I have to add that the filter media on the factory designed by pass filters was also coarse, many times made from cotton or cloth materials, It wasn't the same media that the current by pass filters use, So yes the oil wasn't being filtered to a very high standard due to inefficient media used in the cartridges. It was a better design and the placement of the filter didn't interfere with oil pressure drop because the filtered oil was just returned to the sump, it did not oil the internal engine parts, so zero pressure drop, as cannot be said for the full flow system. No by pass valve was needed as a priority oiling safety against filter restriction.

[64speed]

Originally Posted by hgerhardt

So ultimately the only problem was you were using a B/F-body 90 deg adapter instead of the proper 110 deg (or whatever it actually is) A-body adapter???
Amazing how it's the simplest things sometimes.

You’re right it’s my error. I was using the adapter that came on the engine. I never thought about the different applications making that big of a difference. Well the difference is HUGE.

[b-man]

I used to plug the bypass on all my Pontiac engines, following what H-O Racing recommended using the Lee MAXI filters with the internal bypass. Later on when Lee discontinued the MAXI filter I just used standard filters without any issues.

For my latest build (‘64 421 HO) I’m leaving the factory bypass intact, why not?

I’ve never experienced any oiling related issues ever with the bypass plugged and I’m sure leaving it the way the engineers designed it will work just as well or perhaps even better.

Don’t overthink it, just use a quality filter that’s as large as practical within the space you have available.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by TinInjun

Grenaded? Did you see any of these engines? I have and they were far from being grenaded. None of these engines had an oil related failure. Ok Skippy. Now go work on your fantasy engine, on fantasy island, in your fantasy world.

Which one ? The 700HP pump gas stock block, or the IA2 ? Lotta iron laying around here to be a fantasy. The 50 NHRA trophy's must be a fantasy too.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

Just how many engines have I grenaded????

Last year in Fla I had one break a intake valve and it cracked the piston. One sleeve later and 2 new valves and it is back in the car now. Same crank, bearings, etc.

The spare that I put in for the ATL race while the other engine was out was bought from a ex-member here that had raced it for years. I did not build it or disassemble before I ran it. Did not have time. It broke a lifter bore and the piece locked 2 rods up and broke them.

Funny how I lost all these engines you say. I have been racing this car since the late 80's and have only lost 2 engines I have built. I guarantee I run a stock block harder than you ever will or ever have.In fact I will put my stock block street strip car up against your fantasy IA build any day.

Grenaded was a little harsh. I know you have had issues and posted about them. You advise to plug and run a K&N and I advise differently.
HO Racing said to plug it back when you could get the Lee filter with by pass that they recommended.
The stock block I am building at the moment should come close to your numbers on pump gas. That "fantasy IA2", good luck.
I work with hydraulic systems and their filtration. A 20 HP pump uses huge filters even on the low pressure side.( high pressure side 900$ just for the filter) Far larger than a automotive one. Whats the difference ? A new 20 HP pump on a system I worked on was 14,000 $ new and 7000$ used. They do not mess around with filters. Why should we ?
Funny how no one is arguing Smokey Yunick was flat out wrong in his testing. Thats where I get it, Dan got it from him and Dan passed it on to me. So when the question comes up that is the advice I give.
Even if others that I respect tell folks to shove it all through a small paper filter with no by pass and they never had a issue.

[Mike Davis]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

The stock block I am building at the moment should come close to your numbers on pump gas. That "fantasy IA2", good luck.
.

You started this with your comments about me grenading a bunch of engines. Which was false news.

Shouldn't be hard to get close to my numbers, but you are forgetting the fact I am doing it with a class built engine with a lot less cubic inches and as cast intake and Carter afb's. Not a max effort ported intake and Dominator.

But the fact is mine is running now and I know what it makes, you won't and don't know as yours is not together. It may not even fall out of a tree under its own power. If your shootin for 700hp your gonna be way short.

My apologies to the OP for the derail.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by 64speed

Got an oil filter adapter which ... Just FYI it was on my old 326

Deja vu?




02-15-2019

Originally Posted by 64speed

Oil filter adapter is the one I took off the factory 326