[BAD2000TA]

So, I'm trying to fix a coolant and oil leak on the front of my 455. I bought a new timing case cover, new bolts/stud kit from Inline Tube and trying to do everything exactly perfect.

However, I misread the torque for the water pump-to-timing case cover bolts. I thought it was 30/ft lbs for all the bolts including the water pump ones. I guess not. Re-read and it's only 15/ft lbs for the water pump bolts. I haven't installed on the engine yet. The water pump/timing case cover is still on my workbench.

My question is: What do I do?

1. Just leave it alone. 30/ft lbs isn't that much
2. Back out each one and re-torque to 15/ft lbs
3. Take the water pump off and re-do the whole thing.

Thanks

[steve25]

Leave it as is.
As long as you did not snap off any bolts your ok, but the next time you pull it all off I would plan on replacing all of the over tightened bolts!

[dataway]

Yep, at this point you are all in. If it doesn't leak ... you are good to go, if it does leak ... well you'd have to take it back apart anyway. Like Steve says, if it does come back part replace those bolts ... I'm guessing the threads in the cover gave way a bit if the bolts didn't break. I'd also be little bit worried about warping/cracking the water pump housing ... depending on what gasket you used.

Sounds like you think similar to me, I'd lose sleep over it, end up getting new bolts and reassembling it with the right torque before I put it all back together

[lust4speed]

I'd be worried that the bolts were on the ragged edge and running vibration or the additional stress from the tight belt might pop some threads. I'd loosen one at a time and drop down to 20 foot pounds as a compromise at this point.

[steve25]

Once a bolt or stud has been over torqued and stretched you do not want to try to loosen it up as it may then snap!

It's all bolted up and likely sealing just fine so just leave it until the need comes along to take it apart.

[Sirrotica]

I had a friend helping me years ago put an engine in a 65 GTO years ago, he always was over tightening everything he laid a wrench on. I had him bolt the pressure plate on and tighten it while I was working on something else. Less than a week after the engine is in I get this horrible noise coming from the bellhousing. I pull it apart and found the 3/8 inch bolt head beating everything up inside of the bellhousing. Pressure plate only held by 5 bolts, one broken off inside of the flywheel. It cost me a new pressure plate, plus labor.

If you remove the bolts now, as opposed to later, there is no chance that down the road seeping coolant is going to freeze them to the aluminum housing. Easier to do it now than after corrosion sets in.

I would neversieze each bolt and stud in the timing cover as coolant has a way of getting in the threads over time and seizing the threads. I'm speaking from experience of broken bolts, and studs in Pontiac timing covers over 50 years of working on them.

Take it for what it's worth, your mileage may vary.

[steve25]

I can't see the comparison between the loads seen on pressure plate bolts and the loading factor of water pump bolts here!

[78w72]

x2 for retorqueing them to the right amount. i doubt the bolts will break, they are a 5/16 bolt & new & 30lb/ft likely wont break them. but more important is the threads in the timing cover may be on the verge of stripping with that much torque, have seen too many timing cover threads stripped from over torqueing. things are new & there should be no issue to loosen them all & re tighten to the correct 15lbs.

then after a few heat cycles re snug them again. anti seize is a good idea but will make the torque rating a little higher but avoid seizing.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by steve25

I can't see the comparison between the loads seen on pressure plate bolts and the loading factor of water pump bolts here!

The bolt was on my pressure plate was stretched, and it failed soon after as it was put into service. Heating and cooling of the timing cover/water pump, is going to vary the amount of stress seen by the fasteners due to expansion and contraction. If the bolt, or the threads in the aluminum housing, are stretched near it's yield point as it sits cold, the next step is fastener failure/or the aluminum threads being pushed past their yield point as the two materials expand.

That's as easy as I can explain it Steve. Sorry if that explanation doesn't make sense to you.

I have seen the 5/16 inch bolts pump bolts actually fail, and have the bolt head fall off, after years of service and corrosion.

[steve25]

I am sorry also that you can't see that bolts in the usage like your talking about are under both clamping and sheering loads and water pump bolts are not, that is unless the water pump seizes .

[lust4speed]

78w72 mentioned the aluminum timing cover threads, and this was my thinking also. I wasn't worried about the bolts, but the aluminum threads being pulled up to the limit of their life. It will be the timing cover that suffers in the future.

[Sirrotica]

Makes little difference why the head shears off, what stress it's under, if the bolt is compromised, and the head shears, who cares what stress it's under? Thing being is it can be either type of stress and still shear when it's past it's yield point.

There is zero shear on a water pump, however I have seen fresh breaks when no one has tried to loosen or tighten the bolt. Is that a frequent thing, no I've probably seen a waterpump bolt shear twice in my career without someone trying to loosen it. Now go to an exhaust manifold bolt to cylinder head, under clamping force, they shear off much more frequently, due to expansion and contraction.

I'm not getting into a pissing match over this, I know what I've seen doing this for 50 years. If you want the last word, feel free. I've got better things to do with my time. Try to help someone when they ask for an opinion, and get called out, and insulted about my knowledge, and experience.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

78w72 mentioned the aluminum timing cover threads, and this was my thinking also. I wasn't worried about the bolts, but the aluminum threads being pulled up to the limit of their life. It will be the timing cover that suffers in the future.

yes the timing cover threads are whats at risk running at 30lb/ft. no reason not to undo them all & retorque to the right spec. or do one by one.

ive seen & had w/p bolts break but its usually because they are seized & corrosion weakened the bolts or simply because when they are seized it takes a lot more than 15-30lb/ft of torque to undo them. i bought an engine awhile back that came with a timing cover that the bolts were probably never removed from the factory & had 2 broken bolts, the nubs that were left were enough to fully grab with vice grips, even after heating the cover area with a torch the bolts would not come out, completely seized in the cover! use anti seize on steel to alum items!

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I would neversieze each bolt and stud in the timing cover as coolant has a way of getting in the threads over time and seizing the threads.

Originally Posted by 78w72

anti seize is a good idea but will make the torque rating a little higher but avoid seizing.

Originally Posted by 78w72

use anti seize on steel to alum items!

I ALWAYS use anti seize when putting a steel bolt into an aluminum casting.

Don't forget to REDUCE the torque by about 20% compared to "clean and dry" torque spec due to the lubricating effect of the anti-seize. 15 ft/lb spec becomes about 12 ft/lb with anti-seize

[PunchT37]

I’m with 78w and lust. The aluminum threads are gonna strip before the bolts break.

[BAD2000TA]

Thanks all. I'm going to remove each, one at a time and re-torque to anti-seize. Also dealing with the stupid oil pan gasket slipping all over the place. Does it help to glue in place, let harden, then install on the engine?

[Sirrotica]

There should have been some plastic push in sleeves that go in the bolt holes used to hold it in place in the gasket kit, usually 2 if you have bought just the timing cover gasket. They are pushed in from the top towards the ground, that's what the engineers came up with to hold the gasket in place.

If you don't have those plastic sleeves then coat the bottom of the gasket with RTV, stick it on the pan, let it sit overnight and assemble it. Use RTV sparingly, more isn't better.

That's how I'd do it, someone will probably be along soon to tell you a different solution.

[Schurkey]

One of the few times I'm going to disagree with Sirrotica.

DO NOT use RTV silicone (or Yellow Death weatherstrip adhesive). Use a REAL gasket adhesive. Any one of thirty different brands will be a superior solution.

Gasgacinch, High Tack, Copper Coat, Indianhead, Permatex #1, #2, or #3, Hylomar, or two dozen other alternatives. A small "dot" of RTV at the corners of the pan, where the gaskets meet the rubber seals is OK.

Pontiac is "unusual" in that the gasket needs to be assembled and stuck to the pan instead of the engine.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by BAD2000TA

Thanks all. I'm going to remove each, one at a time and re-torque to anti-seize. Also dealing with the stupid oil pan gasket slipping all over the place. Does it help to glue in place, let harden, then install on the engine?

You are doing the right thing with the bolts, although I would remove one at a time and replace it with a NEW bolt, torqued to spec. In 45 years of doing these, I have NEVER used a torque wrench and have never had a problem.....but I don't over tighten stuff. I would NOT remove the old gaskets, etc. They should be fine.
For a pan gasket, I use Indian Head or Gaska-Sinch or Hi Tack gasket cement to attach it to the block, and then RTV between the block and pan. Let it set up on the block before the install. Knew a guy once who broke his engine block by tightening down the two valley pan bolts to 50 foot pounds. Tore the boss right out. Amazing what you can do with a heavy hand! Good luck.
Disclaimer: the last engine I just did was a SBC, with the pan gasket cemented to the block with Indian Head. What Schurkey says is correct: attach to the pan and let it set up FIRST.

[Sirrotica]

Shurkey, just to clarify my reasoning using RTV, over gorilla snot, for this particular job.

This pan could be distorted from over tightening. When the pan is in the car it's not an easy task to straighten the front lip, so in this case I recommended RTV because it will fill gaps that I would normally hammer and dolly flat if the pan was off of the engine. I did recommend overnight drying, and a minimal application because of the squeezing out of excess RTV. I have seen more than one Pontiac oil pump relief ball stuck with a glob of RTV under it, hence the recommendation of moderate usage of the product.

If the pan was off the car, and the engine was on a stand, that I could straighten the pan rail, I would use gorilla snot, it just doesn't fill gaps as well as RTV.

I stopped using the gasket cement years ago, except for certain metal shim head gaskets and metal intake sets, high tack, to each their own though.