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#61
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And they can vary all over the map new ...........
Skip Fix bought a Rimac spring tester and checked three sets of new valve springs. The tester was calibrated with the special spring. A set of Manley springs. Two sets of Comps, 917 & 943. Manleys had a low of 268 and a high of 310 seat. Comp 943s about a 20 lbs spread and the 917s about a 12 spread. The Manley and 943s where way over their advertised seat pressure. .
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#62
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Guys, I just went through this too... a Lunati HR blew up on me, with around 2000 miles on them. I ended up filming the entire deconstruction and rebuild process on YouTube. The lifter sheared off, and ate some of the Cam. Here's the video where I found it... go to the 19:00 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/y_iPx4CiMTg That said, I'm still not an expert at this, but have learned a TON from this incident. In my case, the anti-rotate bar pin broke, the lifter spun 90 degrees and the cam sheered the Roller off. (Here's the video me fishing the roller out of the pan, https://youtu.be/r_LCmaS8nis) I originally got these from Butler Performance, over 5 years ago. They talked to Lunati, who talked to Morel, who makes them... they agreed with my prognosis, and refunded my money! That's awesome customer support right there. Anyway, I upgraded to Johnson Lifters. Per Butler, they said all of the manufacturers who make HR retrofit lifters have failed for one reason, or another, but by far the most reliable they've seen, come from Johnson. Now all that being said, I have two takeaways. One, HR's should not be making noise, after the engine heats up, per Jim Butler. (At least not clacking) Two, Lifters must be thoroughly cleaned, BEFORE putting them in the engine. This is something that really isn't documented anywhere. (For example, there are no instructions that came with my Johnson Lifters). The reason is, Lifters are made from Hardened steel, which is heavy in Carbon. If you let them sit, without some sort rust preventative, they'll oxidize, almost immediately. Soooo, manufactures use a rust preventative during final assembly to ensure their product doesn't rust while sitting on the shelf. This rust preventative is extremely sticky, as compared to oil, for obvious reasons. If this "sticky stuff" isn't cleaned out of the plunger, it'll have the propensity to jam up in operation. I actually tested a few of the plungers on my Johnson set, before and after cleaning. There was a huge difference in plunger performance, after cleaning. I haven't fired the recently rebuilt motor yet ... (while the engine was out, I decided to upgrade to a Hydraulic Clutch, and TREMEC 600, which I'm also filming) I will film the first fire, and hopefully will not hear what I heard before the tear down... ha, ha... Just thought I'd share my findings... |
#63
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Quote:
When working in a buick dealership (1983) we had a core diesel engine laying there and I was going to swap the lifters into my Pontiac with my roller cam. Until I pulled the intake off and saw they were much larger than the gas engines flat tappets............. I had thought I was going to have the first roller cammed Pontiac with roller hydraulics, damn GM engineers ruined my fun......... A couple months ago there was a thread to try to find OEM style lifter that could be used in our blocks, but I guess it fizzled out with no results. Someone had mentioned the olds diesel lifters and I told them I had been there and tried that, it wasn't happening. Pontiac OEM blocks surely can't have the lifter bores enlarged to try the larger bore lifters, because they're already failure prone to failure at stock spec. Possibly the aftermarket blocks could be taken out to use a larger diameter lifter such as the olds diesel roller lifters, an expensive proposition for a street engine though. I also looked up the Straub Technologies website last night after seeing a reference to it in another thread. He (Chris Straub) has quite a few roller lifter choices for Pontiacs on his site, from hydraulic street, to solid competition. Also noted he starts with Morel lifters that have the oil bands in the correct place as noted in his PDF outlining the Pontiac choices he offers. I was surprised at the amount of correctly made Pontiac lifters he offered. I didn't see any pricing while looking, maybe if you have to ask, you can't afford it..........LOL I did some research last night and found the CC roller lifters have high failure rates in other brands beside Pontiacs. I couldn't sleep last night, and wound up searching the net for options....... I did see the Pontiac series on you tube last night on the failed link bar allowing the lifter to turn sideways while I was up last night. I still think the rev kit has some promise to try to control the heavy valvetrain parts, as I said earlier my old school Crower solid roller cam ran fine on the street with a rev kit. It also had interlocking forks on the roller lifters instead of links, to keep them in alignment I believe to be a better system than the failure prone link setup.
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Brad Yost 1973 T/A (SOLD) 2005 GTO 1984 Grand Prix 100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway? If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated Last edited by Sirrotica; 05-27-2020 at 12:47 PM. |
#64
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I wonder what the rate of failure is for each manufacturer. I can only assume Comp Cams has many more lifters in operation due to their share of the market. And then they sometimes source from different manufacturers which I’m sure would skew the numbers.
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears ‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: work in progress |
#65
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Morel,Johnson,Gaterman and Shaver are the primary aftermarket hyd roller lifter MFGs.Pretty much any Cam makers buy from one or more of these.Tom
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#66
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Gaterman instructions for conversation!
https://www.gatermanproducts.com/upl...tions_2017.pdf |
#67
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#68
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In post #18(thanks Form), the one on the left in photo(shell covers roller) is like the ones GM has used since the 90's.
No way would i use the style on the right. But must say we'v had quite a few failures with the active management HRL's on 2007-2020(newest was a 2018 two moths ago) 5.3's and couple 6.2's. Usually just 1 or 2 lock up and bend push rods. Keep 2 sets with assoiated parts on the self. Even had to replace 2 cams that only had 1 worn lobe so far this year.
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If you cant drive from gas pump to gas pump across the map, its not a street car. http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/b...hop/?start=100 |
#69
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Its better than an 068...If you're going that route.
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1978 Black & Gold T/A [complete 70 Ram Air III (carb to pan) PQ and 12 bolt], fully loaded, deluxe, WS6, T-Top car - 1972 Formula 455HO Ram Air numbers matching Julep Green - 1971 T/A 455, 320 CFM Eheads, RP cam, Doug's headers, Fuel injection, TKX 5 Spd. 12 Bolt 3.73, 4 wheel disc. All A/C cars |
#70
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#71
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Looks like he just sells Morel lifters for a pontiac?Some need the lifter bores bushed?Tom
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#72
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Deleted
Last edited by 70GS455; 05-27-2020 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Duplicate |
#73
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To answer it regarding acceleration and inertial forces from an aggressive lobe, the following page gives an explanation and has a link to a downloadable xl spreadsheet tool. You will need the lobe profile's deceleration over the nose (I took a few data points on mine with a degree wheel and then took 2 derivatives). But it gives your spring force "margin" over the nose, in my case I had about 175 lbf at 6k rpm left over (or about 30% margin). Prob could go with less spring for me Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk |
#74
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Quote:
https://straubtechnologies.com/ponti...ts/lifters-pon |
#75
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"Black Mamba" Whoooo...
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If you cant drive from gas pump to gas pump across the map, its not a street car. http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/b...hop/?start=100 |
#76
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LOL
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#77
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Sorry to read about your lifter/engine failure.
Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#78
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FJ,I already looked at it,all Morels?Tom
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#79
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Quote:
How did you clean them? |
#80
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I don't get it. Looking at the prices of running Hyd Roller set ups (cam, lifters, pushrods, block mods, etc etc) you don't get much bang for the buck. They seem to be unreliable on top of it all. Don't you guys realize you can make big power with solid flat tappet cams? Even HFT can make big power. At a FRACTION of the cost. Money that could be better spent on other things like upgrading heads.
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