[67TIGER]

I have a few basic questions that I need some clarification on for my 1967 400 block.
I have been trying to use the search function but still having some trouble finding answers.

1) I picked up some Permatex Teflon Sealer, is this ok for installing the threaded oil galley plugs at the rear?

2) What kind of sealer is recommended for the freeze plugs, in particular the camshaft plug at the back? Also is there a specified depth for the cam plug to be installed? I see cautions frequently about installing it too deep and touching the camshaft.

2a) What sealer would be recommended for the pressed in plugs at the front of the oil galleys? Anyone ever try Locktite Red then peening the plugs in?

3) I'm using the Graphite Rope Seal, Do you use RTV gasket maker to hold it in? If so how much?

Again I know these questions are basic Pontiac 101 but I haven't done anything like this in a long time
Thanks for any help.
Steven

[Dick Boneske]

Good questions. The Permatex Teflon sealer works great for threaded pipe plugs.

You're going to get many opinions on the other items, but maybe we need to learn from experience. It seems the old timers like me like to use Permatex Gasket Shellac. I don't like it because of the difficulty in cleanup when disassembling and reassembling.

There was a recent post on what sealant to use on paper, rubber, and cork gaskets for rocker covers, timing cover, valley cover, oil pan, oil filter housing, fuel pump, and thermostat housing. Many are opposed to RTV for any gasket application. I personally have always used RTV on the front and rear of the intake manifold, water passages areas for timing cover, and for the thermostat housing, oil pan corners, valley cover gaskets, fuel pump, and oil filter gaskets. I've always sprayed conventional head gaskets with Permatex Copper sealant, with zero failures for 50 years.

[61-63]

I am no engine builder but used Ultra Black on the freeze and oil gallery plugs on what few engines I've put together and have had no leaks. Don't forget to run a bead of it under the rear main bearing cap from the pan gasket to the rope seal, otherwise you can have oil seepage under that cap.

[KEN CROCIE]

DB: My way too!

[i82much]

there is a loctite product called retaining compound that might be useful for a press fit plug.

[67TIGER]

Thanks for all the suggestions, please keep them coming.
Things have changed so much in the past 40+ years concerning engine procedures, it's like trying to learn everything all over again.

I82much (Steve) thanks for that info. I had not thought about the Locktite retaining compound but it sounds perfect for what I need to seal those plugs before peening them in.


Steven

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by 67TIGER

1) I picked up some Permatex Teflon Sealer, is this ok for installing the threaded oil galley plugs at the rear?

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

The Permatex Teflon sealer works great for threaded pipe plugs.

WHICH "Permatex Teflon sealer"? There's multiple part numbers, and at least one of them is terrible for actually sealing threads.

The Loctite/Permatex "PST" products--565, 567, and most commonly 592, are wonderful. Really. The stuff is a liquid miracle. 592 is easiest to find in typical parts stores, it's my thread sealer of choice. I bought a stick of the "solid" version of this product, still evaluating how well it works.
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-48363...5073934&sr=8-2

The crap in the plastic bottle with a brush-cap is OK for sealing gaskets--but don't bother using it on threaded fasteners.
https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-8063...5074041&sr=8-2

Note that there are more than just the four choices I've listed.

Originally Posted by 67TIGER

2) What kind of sealer is recommended for the freeze plugs, in particular the camshaft plug at the back?
2a) What sealer would be recommended for the pressed in plugs at the front of the oil galleys? Anyone ever try Locktite Red?

WHICH "Loctite Red"? There's multiple part numbers. "Red" describes more than one product.

You're probably thinking of 271 thread locker. Good stuff. Yes, I've used it on core plugs and oil gallery plugs. Before that, I used epoxy--the standard JB Weld, or similar.
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-27131...5074116&sr=8-7

https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8265...5074183&sr=8-2

Originally Posted by 67TIGER

3) I'm using the Graphite Rope Seal, Do you use RTV gasket maker to hold it in? If so how much?

No.

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

Many are opposed to RTV for any gasket application. .

Including the folks who make the RTV sealant. It's intended to be used instead of a gasket, not applied to a gasket--except for seams where two gaskets, or a gasket and rubber seal join together.

Originally Posted by 61-63

I am no engine builder but used Ultra Black on the freeze and oil gallery plugs on what few engines I've put together and have had no leaks.

Silicone in aerosol form is a lubricant. The last thing you want to do is to lubricate those press-fit plugs. It's not a good thing when they blow out under pressure.

Originally Posted by 61-63

Don't forget to run a bead of it under the rear main bearing cap from the pan gasket to the rope seal, otherwise you can have oil seepage under that cap.

A very thin application. You don't want so much that the cap doesn't appropriately seat on the block due to a thick layer of RTV silicone. I'd be more-likely to use a smear of gasket sealer--any one of a dozen products would be just fine--Copper Coat, High Tack, Indian Head, Gasgacinch, Hylomar...the list goes on and on.

[61-63]

Schurkey the ultra black I'm referring to isn't a spray lubricant it is a Permatex silicone gasket maker and I assure you freeze and oil gallery plugs will not blow out with this stuff on them. My 389 carburetor flow test engine was rebuilt using this stuff probably seventeen years ago and has had no leaks during the flow testing of hundreds of carburetors.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...+5ba295c791e5c

[steve25]

You do not want to use a liquid Telfon sealer especially if sealing off any sort of vacuum sourse like valve cover bolts that break into Intake runners or vacuum fittings in intakes as since liquid Telfon stays softer then any kind of gasket sealer in time it just gets sucked out of the threads and into the motor, and before you know it the motors smoking on acceleration and throttle let off on you!

The rear cam plug can only go in so far due to the lip in the can tunnel.

Just be sure to drive the plug in with a big socket that fits to inside of the plug well so you do not bent it out towards the end of the Cam.

In terms of the front oil Gally plugs you should really take the time and effort to drill and tap them for Allen type screw in plugs.

A property tapped pipe plug hole should not need any sealer as shown by no such sealer being used in the factory pipe plug holes!

[abefromen]

Some of the cam plugs being sold for the Pontiac engine are slightly larger in both diameter and height. These plugs only go in where they sit flush with the block face. Try and hammer it in any farther and it might deform and destroy the plug.

Correct plug for the Pontiac is the thin one that goes into the machined second lip. I prefer the proper plug, but have never had a problem with the fatter plug.

555-047 is the correct thin plug and measures 2-3/64" in diameter
PC112 is one of the fatter plugs and measures 2-1/16" in diameter

[67TIGER]

A lot of great info here.
Schurkey: Sorry, sometimes I put things in a generic sense. I didn't think there were that many different types of sealers.
I found the 592 Thread Sealant and the 271 Thread Locker and will use those.

Concerning the Graphite Rear Main Seal, the instructions call for a small amount of silicone to prevent the seal from rotating, that is what I thought was strange.
Last rear main seal I did was back in 1978 and I didn't use anything to keep it from rotating, just formed it into the groove and the anti rotation cavities. Of course I think it was an original asbestos type of seal (what wouldn't I give for one of those now!)
I'm sure many of you all have installed this seal, what is the best/correct way to install it?

I'm not a big fan of using RTV to excess, I usually just apply a small finger smear just to hold the gaskets in place. It usually works great that way.

steve25: Thanks to you and abefromen for the cam plug info. I will put some 271 Loctite on it and install until it stops.

I appreciate all the replies on these subjects and I am saving all of them on Word Perfect so I can refer to them for future reference. Thanks!
Steven

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by 61-63

Schurkey the ultra black I'm referring to isn't a spray lubricant it is a Permatex silicone gasket maker and I assure you freeze and oil gallery plugs will not blow out with this stuff on them.

Yes, of course an RTV silicone is neither sold as a lubricant, nor aerosol. It's still silicone, and it's still slippery. What you have going for you is that it "hardens", and the press-fit of the plugs means it's an EXTREMELY thin layer.

Originally Posted by steve25

You do not want to use a liquid Telfon sealer especially if sealing off any sort of vacuum sourse like valve cover bolts that break into Intake runners or vacuum fittings in intakes as since liquid Telfon stays softer then any kind of gasket sealer in time it just gets sucked out of the threads and into the motor, and before you know it the motors smoking on acceleration and throttle let off on you!

Not at all true. The "PST" products I mentioned have an anaerobic chemical in them, they actually HARDEN in the absence of air, just like thread-lockers.

Even the brush-cap crap is liquid because of solvent, when the solvent evaporates, the stuff is very thick. I've used it to seal steel-shim head gaskets. I'm far less enthused about sealing bolt threads. Truly, it's a better gasket sealer than it is a thread sealer. Teflon or not, the stuff is sticky.

Originally Posted by 67TIGER

Schurkey: Sorry, sometimes I put things in a generic sense. I didn't think there were that many different types of sealers.
I found the 592 Thread Sealant and the 271 Thread Locker and will use those.

You'll love 'em.

Originally Posted by 67TIGER

Concerning the Graphite Rear Main Seal, the instructions call for a small amount of silicone to prevent the seal from rotating, that is what I thought was strange.
Last rear main seal I did was back in 1978 and I didn't use anything to keep it from rotating, just formed it into the groove and the anti rotation cavities.

I haven't used the Graphite rope seal, if they're telling you to use some RTV silicone, I guess you should follow instructions. I haven't put a rope seal in, in decades. As long as the seal groove is concentric, and the crank surface is even moderately smooth, I'll use a lip seal EVERY TIME.

Originally Posted by 67TIGER

I'm not a big fan of using RTV to excess, I usually just apply a small finger smear just to hold the gaskets in place. It usually works great that way.

Consider using an actual gasket sealer instead.

[racegto65]

1&2) Permatex Form-A-Gasket® No. 2 Sealant
2a) No sealer just be sure to stake the plugs after installing
3) I don't use rope seals but use a small amount of Permatex Ultra RTV(Gray or Black)
on the ends of the seal and the block and rear main mating surface and most of the
gaskets excluding the head gaskets.

I have done this to every engine that leaves my shop regardless of make.

Originally Posted by 67TIGER

I have a few basic questions that I need some clarification on for my 1967 400 block.
I have been trying to use the search function but still having some trouble finding answers.

1) I picked up some Permatex Teflon Sealer, is this ok for installing the threaded oil galley plugs at the rear?

2) What kind of sealer is recommended for the freeze plugs, in particular the camshaft plug at the back? Also is there a specified depth for the cam plug to be installed? I see cautions frequently about installing it too deep and touching the camshaft.

2a) What sealer would be recommended for the pressed in plugs at the front of the oil galleys? Anyone ever try Locktite Red then peening the plugs in?

3) I'm using the Graphite Rope Seal, Do you use RTV gasket maker to hold it in? If so how much?

Again I know these questions are basic Pontiac 101 but I haven't done anything like this in a long time
Thanks for any help.
Steven

[darbikrash]

Everyone has their own procedures on rear main seals. I like to use the graphite rope seals on mine as well. The lip seals are dependent on the seal groove being concentric with the crank, and they often are not.

From my experience, if you are going to use a rope seal spend some time "setting" it before trimming the ends.

I do this by getting a round pipe slightly smaller than the crank main journal diameter, and then rough install the seal in the block side first with the ends protruding evenly about the part line. Lay the pipe on top of the seal and using a mallet give a few gentle whacks on the pipe starting at the 6' o'clock position and working your way up each side a little bit at a time, using the mallet to seat the seal firmly into the groove. I made a mandrel with a flat on one side to do this and it works really well. The flat is for the mallet strike.

What you'll notice is the seal elongates by doing this, as the ends "grow" and stick out further. If you trim the ends before you do this step, when you torque the rear main around the crank, your seal preload will be wrong.

Once the seal has been thoroughly seated/stretched, I pull it out of the groove and apply a very thin layer of Permatex Ultra Black on the groove side of the seal, then put it back in, starting a 6 o'clock and moving up both sides. Then I do the same thing with the pipe and seat the seal a second time. By now, most of the stretching is done, but the second go around is important as this is where the seal will live for the rest of its life.

Once this is done, now the ends can be trimmed using the carboard shim and the sharp blade. I only use the blade for one side, then I get a new blade for the second side as the edge has to be perfectly sharp so as not to leave any threads or strands when trimming.

The cap is done the same way.

Once trimmed, I use a thin layer of anaerobic sealer applied to the steel surface just around the seal ends, nothing on the seal end itself.

[67TIGER]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Originally Posted by 67TIGER View Post
I'm not a big fan of using RTV to excess, I usually just apply a small finger smear just to hold the gaskets in place. It usually works great that way.

Consider using an actual gasket sealer instead.

I will get a bottle of Indian Head Gasket Shellac, have never tried it but that's what it is made for.

[67TIGER]

Originally Posted by darbikrash

Everyone has their own procedures on rear main seals. I like to use the graphite rope seals on mine as well. The lip seals are dependent on the seal groove being concentric with the crank, and they often are not.

From my experience, if you are going to use a rope seal spend some time "setting" it before trimming the ends.

I do this by getting a round pipe slightly smaller than the crank main journal diameter, and then rough install the seal in the block side first with the ends protruding evenly about the part line. Lay the pipe on top of the seal and using a mallet give a few gentle whacks on the pipe starting at the 6' o'clock position and working your way up each side a little bit at a time, using the mallet to seat the seal firmly into the groove. I made a mandrel with a flat on one side to do this and it works really well. The flat is for the mallet strike.

What you'll notice is the seal elongates by doing this, as the ends "grow" and stick out further. If you trim the ends before you do this step, when you torque the rear main around the crank, your seal preload will be wrong.

Once the seal has been thoroughly seated/stretched, I pull it out of the groove and apply a very thin layer of Permatex Ultra Black on the groove side of the seal, then put it back in, starting a 6 o'clock and moving up both sides. Then I do the same thing with the pipe and seat the seal a second time. By now, most of the stretching is done, but the second go around is important as this is where the seal will live for the rest of its life.

Once this is done, now the ends can be trimmed using the carboard shim and the sharp blade. I only use the blade for one side, then I get a new blade for the second side as the edge has to be perfectly sharp so as not to leave any threads or strands when trimming.

The cap is done the same way.

Once trimmed, I use a thin layer of anaerobic sealer applied to the steel surface just around the seal ends, nothing on the seal end itself.

Thank you for taking the time to give me the step by step for this rear seal installation. This is very helpful, Thank you.