[Tom Vaught]

The precision pump and the melling pump have a very small slot on the cover because the "floating gear" on the left side of the picture receives oil from the top of the pump and that oil passes between the Floating gear and the support shaft. Therefore any oil traveling down that shaft also goes to the cover plate.

The other gear is attached to the drive shaft of the pump and there is no way for oil to get to the underside of the gear and pump cover so melling and precision machine a small oil slot to supply some oil under the drive gear and between it and the cover.

If Melling and Precision are already supplying oil to that area, no reason to add a second
circular groove to oil the bottom of the gears.

If you make a non production thick cover to allow using a larger BB Chevy Gear set, then the special cover may be needed with the circular groove.
These mods: BB Chevy Gears, Thick Custom Cover, were added since I last talked to Mark. That being said, I thought this thread was about the Custom Oil Pump INLET Mods, not about the mods to put a set of Chevy gears inside a Pontiac Pump housing. LARGER OIL PUMP PICKUP I BELIEVE IS STILL THE THREAD TOPIC.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Im confused, the Nitemare base plate is wrong due to the machined circles in them for the gears?
But this pic is of a base plate from Luhn, is it not wrong also then???

Mark at Luhn Performance said He was not going to discuss his Oil Pump Cover Mods. I would assume that He also would not appreciate YOU postings pictures of the mods he makes to the pumps.

ALL I WILL SAY ON THAT DEAL AFTER TALKING TO HIM TODAY.

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Can we see a pic with a gear, sitting in the proper position on the base plate? if the groove doesn't meet the bottom of the teeth, it should not make any difference.

The grove is right in the middle of the teeth. So its a leak area for your film of oil. This is the Nightmare plate.

[AG]

Anyone who refuses to discuss any design choices is strange to me. I would expect the opposite that they would want to promote their good design elements.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by AG

Anyone who refuses to discuss any design choices is strange to me. I would expect the opposite that they would want to promote their good design elements.

The Luhns are very nice and helpful people. But I got the point they did not want others copying their hard work and testing. Can not find fault in them for that.
I am redesigning my pickup based on what Tom and Steve have posted in this thread but I have to wait until Monday when I can use the lathe again.
Its a lot of messing around for sure but I like to do things myself if I can.

To tell you the truth giving Luhn your pan depth and paying 400$ for their best pump is not a bad idea with all the time I have into this.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by AG

Anyone who refuses to discuss any design choices is strange to me. I would expect the opposite that they would want to promote their good design elements.

Ford, A very Large company with lots of Design Engineers never discussed Design Elements with "outsiders".
We had to sign Confidentially Agreements, as did outside companies doing work for us on projects we worked on..

I would say your comment is a bit naive in the world of business. Lots of different companies asked for my Engineering opinions on design work and My rule (which the companies all knew) was I NEVER DISCUSS WHAT A COMPANY IS DOING WITH A OUTSIDER. THEY KNEW I WOULD NOT BE ON THE INTERNET A FEW DAYS LATER POSTING THEIR HARD WORK. The pictures I posted came right from Luhn's Website.

Tom V.

[AG]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Ford, A very Large company with lots of Design Engineers never discussed Design Elements with "outsiders".
We had to sign Confidentially Agreements, as did outside companies doing work for us on projects we worked on..

I would say your comment is a bit naive in the world of business. Lots of different companies asked for my Engineering opinions on design work and My rule (which the companies all knew) was I NEVER DISCUSS WHAT A COMPANY IS DOING WITH A OUTSIDER. THEY KNEW I WOULD NOT BE ON THE INTERNET A FEW DAYS LATER POSTING THEIR HARD WORK. The pictures I posted came right from Luhn's Website.

Tom V.

First of all, I am not pooping on them, their product looks excellent and I would buy it. Anyone can buy their pump and reproduce what they did and sell it unless they have a patent on it and then there would be a legal battle. If their design has improved oil flow compared to a stock Melling pump I'm just surprised they would not promote that fact supported by data. I'm not naive and understand business and competitive advantage. Look at how the IAII block is advertised outlining each design element and how it is better than stock. Not trying to hurt your feelings.

[Tom Vaught]

Several of the identified changes made by the IA-2 guys were in response to issues where stock parts would not fit exactly the same. An example being the pan rail being in a slightly different spot and some of the Production Pontiac Parts not fitting the same. (A running change where the starter pad was machined to put it back in the stock location fixed that starter issue.
So yes, Bob and Franks made people aware of those changes as they happened.
Most times they were a suggestion on how to resolve that specific block fitment issue.

As I posted in another thread of Carburetors, it does you little good when you see a company is copying your design. What Holley did was wait until there were a very large number of Copied Calibration carbs out there and then they brought the issue to the courts. Lots more $$$$$$$. Again you are assuming things from a simplistic view point.

You have no real knowledge on how things really work. My company went after a offshore company for a design they had put in place on their vehicles that was a Documented Patented item by my company. At the end of the day, this island company and my company said nothing but the people in the wrong paid for that error quietly in $$$$$.

Why would you be hurting my feelings, I would feel the same explaining things to a child who ask how things worked.

Tom V.

[242177P]

Just because someone in R&D is expected to be tight lipped doesn't mean that applies
to everyone else. Can you imagine if someone in PR took the same approach? When a
product is on the market, it needs to be promoted. And, as long as we're reinventing the
wheel, I want Dragncar to fabricate a couple of tight radius bends using pie cuts. It'll
end up being more weld than tube, but I can wait. In polished stainless please!

[Tom Vaught]

Personally I feel that Luhn Performance is doing you a favor every time he comes up with making the Traditional Pontiac Engine more durable and more powerful.

I would say that he does most of the things he does because he likes doing Engineering Work vs Sales and Marketing.
Wade used to be the Sales and Marketing guy at BOP and Mark was the Engineering and Design Guy.
Mark and his wife started Luhn Performance (his wife's company) because it allowed him to stay close to home
and be able to design the things that HE wanted to Design, not that he Had To Design for someone else who owned the company. A very very talented individual.

Tom V.

How come I never see any posts about YOUR PROJECTS on the PY Board.
I have posted about the Pontiac EFI intake I designed, provided lots of carb answers
to questions, and answered Boosting questions. You on the other hand...........................

Post up why you think Mark went to the larger inlet tube designs on his oil pumps.
How do those mods help the engine to survive?

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

These mods: BB Chevy Gears, Thick Custom Cover, were added since I last talked to Mark. That being said, I thought this thread was about the Custom Oil Pump INLET Mods, not about the mods to put a set of Chevy gears inside a Pontiac Pump housing. LARGER OIL PUMP PICKUP I BELIEVE IS STILL THE THREAD TOPIC.

Tom V.

So the Luhn has the taller BBC gears?? You sure? I wasn't aware of that, if true then it's moving more oil per revolution than the Mellings pump and i can see why a larger inlet would be beneficial for that pump. If it has the taller gears???

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by slowbird

So the Luhn has the taller BBC gears?? You sure? I wasn't aware of that, if true then it's moving more oil per revolution than the Mellings pump and i can see why a larger inlet would be beneficial for that pump. If it has the taller gears???

I don't know, maybe I am wrong. But I thought when PMD went to the 60lb RAIV pump, and their 80 psi SD 455 pump it was those pumps that went to the larger BBC gears vs the shorter gears on the plain 40 lb PMD pump ?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 242177P

Just because someone in R&D is expected to be tight lipped doesn't mean that applies
to everyone else. Can you imagine if someone in PR took the same approach? When a
product is on the market, it needs to be promoted. And, as long as we're reinventing the
wheel, I want Dragncar to fabricate a couple of tight radius bends using pie cuts. It'll
end up being more weld than tube, but I can wait. In polished stainless please!

Hey, a member did just that (mild steel) Series of pie cuts to get the bend he wanted. Yep, lot of weld but it worked like a charm.

I have some Norris SS rockers and am getting one of Nightmares stainless valley pans. Does that count ?

[Dragncar]

A little perspective here. The hole in the pump that goes to the block is not that big.
2nd pic is the pickup/tube dia I am using next to pump outlet. 1st pic the pickup tube is so large that you can not just bore out the pump body and press it in.
Thats why Luhn has to machine the housing for the bolt on adapter. Pickup tube is huge.
They were working on a geroter (Ford style) at one time. I wonder what happen to that project ?

[Tom Vaught]

Pontiac Oil Pumps were rated at a given pressure and gallons per minute at some specified rpm point. I believe that spec was at 2000 pump rpm and 4000 engine rpm.

So now slowbird, if we know that spec is a valid spec, (per Melling oil pumps), and is 13 gallons a minute at this specified rpm then if you can keep the oil pump from Cavitating (a very bad situation), you can test the oil pump at a higher rpm and spec and get a different flow spec at that new rpm point even though the oil pump is the same size with the same gear set and gear height.

Ford oil pumps had a cavitation problem on their SB Ford Oil Pumps back in the 1998 time frame. Jimmy Keen, a World Champion that year had two oil pumps that had broken the cast iron stem of the oil pump (where the oil flows from the gears). This crack occurred about 1.5 inches from the mounting flange and oil pump gasket where the pump mounts on the engine.
Cavitation Cracked the stem of the oil pump and the oil leaked out of that cracked area vs going to the engine as it was supposed to go to lubricate the engine.

Cavitation of a oil pump is caused by:

Causes

Poor plumbing
Flow restrictions (oil inlet size to the pump gears, for example)
High oil viscosity

The product of excessive vacuum conditions created at the hydraulic pump’s inlet (supply side), cavitation is the formation, and collapse of vapors within a hydraulic pump. High vacuum creates vapor bubbles within the oil, which are carried to the discharge (pressure) side. These bubbles then collapse, thus cavitation.

So when these bubbles explode in the oil pump stem, they pound away at the wall of the oil pump stem INTERNALLY until they weaken the pump to the point the stem cracks and breaks off. This is caused by a restriction on the INLET SIDE of the Oil Pump.

Example: The oil pump screen tube diameter is too small for the Pump rpm the oil pump is trying to maintain. Luhn fixed this restriction, (as did the Aston Martin Oil Pump Engineers when they came out with the large inlet pipes and screens for the pumps). They made the inlet side bigger on the pumps.

So now the cavitation issues disappeared even at high rpm.
The pump problems were not the gear size, it was the inlet size of the pumps.

Melling and others like our oil pump lady engineer knew this and redesigned the oil pumps with the much larger inlets. .875" (Mustang) and 1.00" inlets (Aston Martin) vs the tiny Pontiac inlet pipe screen diameter. Believe that actual internal diameter is about .625 inches.

Course if you never run the engine over 4000 rpm, the Melling spec number for that 13 gallon/min pump you have no issues.

Run the engine higher rpm and you need to fix the problem.

So what Luhn, Dragncar, and a few other people are doing is fixing a known issue on the pumps (know since before 1998). If the Ford 347 Keen engine was running 6000 rpm their would not have been a issue, run it at 8500 rpm and you break oil pump stems.

Can't make it any more simple than that Slowbird. You are 23 years behind the Oil Pump Technology times.

Tom V.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Pontiac Oil Pumps were rated at a given pressure and gallons per minute at some specified rpm point. I believe that spec was at 2000 pump rpm and 4000 engine rpm.

So now slowbird, if we know that spec is a valid spec, (per Melling oil pumps), and is 13 gallons a minute at this specified rpm then if you can keep the oil pump from Cavitating (a very bad situation), you can test the oil pump at a higher rpm and spec and get a different flow spec at that new rpm point even though the oil pump is the same size with the same gear set and gear height.

Ford oil pumps had a cavitation problem on their SB Ford Oil Pumps back in the 1998 time frame. Jimmy Keen, a World Champion that year had two oil pumps that had broken the cast iron stem of the oil pump (where the oil flows from the gears). This crack occurred about 1.5 inches from the mounting flange and oil pump gasket where the pump mounts on the engine.
Cavitation Cracked the stem of the oil pump and the oil leaked out of that cracked area vs going to the engine as it was supposed to go to lubricate the engine.

Cavitation of a oil pump is caused by:

Causes

Poor plumbing
Flow restrictions (oil inlet size to the pump gears, for example)
High oil viscosity

The product of excessive vacuum conditions created at the hydraulic pump’s inlet (supply side), cavitation is the formation, and collapse of vapors within a hydraulic pump. High vacuum creates vapor bubbles within the oil, which are carried to the discharge (pressure) side. These bubbles then collapse, thus cavitation.

So when these bubbles explode in the oil pump stem, they pound away at the wall of the oil pump stem INTERNALLY until they weaken the pump to the point the stem cracks and breaks off. This is caused by a restriction on the INLET SIDE of the Oil Pump.

Example: The oil pump screen tube diameter is too small for the Pump rpm the oil pump is trying to maintain. Luhn fixed this restriction, (as did the Aston Martin Oil Pump Engineers when they came out with the large inlet pipes and screens for the pumps). They made the inlet side bigger on the pumps.

So now the cavitation issues disappeared even at high rpm.
The pump problems were not the gear size, it was the inlet size of the pumps.

Melling and others like our oil pump lady engineer knew this and redesigned the oil pumps with the much larger inlets. .875" (Mustang) and 1.00" inlets (Aston Martin) vs the tiny Pontiac inlet pipe screen diameter. Believe that actual internal diameter is about .625 inches.

Course if you never run the engine over 4000 rpm, the Melling spec number for that 13 gallon/min pump you have no issues.

Run the engine higher rpm and you need to fix the problem.

So what Luhn, Dragncar, and a few other people are doing is fixing a known issue on the pumps (know since before 1998). If the Ford 347 Keen engine was running 6000 rpm their would not have been a issue, run it at 8500 rpm and you break oil pump stems.

Can't make it any more simple than that Slowbird. You are 23 years behind the Oil Pump Technology times.

Tom V.

If it's a know issue why was i able to spin mine 8000+rpm with the standard size pickup for 3 seasons and zero oiling issues?
Im not saying it's a bad thing at all, just wondering at what point is it needed. My dad has been racing Pontiacs since the 60s and spinning them 6000-6500rpm with no oiling issues. He towed to Norwalk twice with his 389 spinning it 4000rpm for 20hrs (round trip) no issues.

[Steve C.]

From the Luhn Performance website...

Increased inlet Pontiac oil pump
"Based on the famous and well proven Melling M54D oil pump with the longer 1.5" length gear set."

Based on my conversation with Mark. It's a GM gear set like the one in a Big Block Chevy high volume pump. My 'understanding' it is 1.5".

From the website, "An 84% increase in area for flow through the pickup tube".

Further I was told at 6000 engine RPM / 3000 pump RPM, the pump flows 19.13 gal/min.

Also from my notes, hopefully they are correct....

87 % more oil flow per revolution / Improved cavitation.

Regarding the cavitation I have written down "about 13 gal to 26 gal", but I have no idea exactly what those numbers correlate to.

.

[Tom Vaught]

.[/QUOTE]

From the Luhn Performance website...

Increased inlet Pontiac oil pump
"Based on the famous and well proven Melling M54D oil pump with the longer 1.5" length gear set." TRUE

Based on my conversation with Mark. It's a GM gear set like the one in a Big Block Chevy high volume pump. My 'understanding' it is 1.5". TRUE

From the website, "An 84% increase in area for flow through the pickup tube". TRUE

Further I was told at 6000 engine RPM / 3000 pump RPM, the pump flows 19.13 gal/min. TRUE
Oil pumps rated by Melling are speced at 2000 Oil Pump RPM. At 2000 pump rpm/13 GPM, they say there is some cases of partial cavitation identified in the Pontiac Oil Pump. This is normal for any oil pump

Also from my notes, hopefully they are correct....

87 % more oil flow per revolution / Improved cavitation.

The increased flow comes from testing at 3000 pump rpm vs 2000 pump rpm without oil cavitation issues. This is where the 26 gallon number comes from. The cavitation point was shifted from 2000 pump rpm and 13 GPM to a new identified cavitation point of 26 GPM.

Regarding the cavitation I have written down "about 13 gal to 26 gal", but I have no idea exactly what those numbers correlate to.

(See Above Steve)

As far as Slowbirds one piece of data, I tend to go with the Melling oil Pump Engineers (Experts in Oil Flow thru a Oil Pump) and their test data.

So I have provided the related info Steve and others. Do what you will with it. A stock oil pump will last forever at 4000 rpm. A raced oil pump may last for one season or more if raced hard, Super Street racing for example.
A race event in a different location every two weeks for the whole season and maybe 10 to 15 passes to get thru the qualifying and racing finals in each event in the 1998 time frame. A one time Super Street was the largest event
category in the typical racing season.

So how many passes do you make in a years time, Slowbird?

Tom V.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So how many passes do you make in a years time, Slowbird?

Tom V.

My dad makes hundreds in a year and thousands appond thousands in his life.
The millings pump at 8000rpm saw over 100 pass without issue and close to thousand street miles.
I don't have an engineering degree but do have first hand experience with a 8000rpm Pontiac and a mellings pump.
Again im not saying it isn't a good option and i can think of worse things to spend the money on. Im just wondering when is it truly needed.

[Stan Weiss]

Doesn't main, and rod bearing clearances along with rod side clearance determine the pressure (psi) you will see and the needed volume? Assuming that the cam bearings, lifters, and valve train all have oil flow at the needed minimum.

Stan