[Gach]

Originally Posted by 64speed

Not even gonna pay 23k. The first one that I blew up (as I’m totally fault) only cost me 12k

And thats where 98% of the Pontiac hobby is at.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Hmmm. Just got back from a 2,715 mile road trip out to Colorado in my stock '67 GTO with born with engine, crank, rods, carb, and points distributor. I rebuilt it in 1988 about 85,000 miles ago. Car is nosing in on 260,000 miles. We averaged 20.6 mpg at a steady 75 mph and used 1/2 quart of oil the entire trip. And surprisingly, had no drivability issues at 8400 feet elevation. Car did not miss a beat. And I've been driving it for the past 40 years with no down time. People that think old tech is not usable or reliable are mis-informed. I even used to commute to work in town in my 103 year old, stock Ford T. Maintained, kept up, repaired as needed when needed, and driven within design parameters, old cars can be dead reliable. Attachment 614301

20.6 MPG at 75 MPH is astounding. For any vehicle that heavy its good even by today,s standards.
All the extra tech is just something to break. Does it make a little more power, pollute a little less, sure.
But IMO its not worth it. Costs go way up, simple is usually better.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

20.6 MPG at 75 MPH is astounding. For any vehicle that heavy its good even by today,s standards.
All the extra tech is just something to break. Does it make a little more power, pollute a little less, sure.
But IMO its not worth it. Costs go way up, simple is usually better.

The secret is a 2.56 Safe-T-Track that I installed about 15 years ago. With the 3.36 gear, it got about 16 mpg at 65 mph.
A buddy who drove part of the time was impressed with the TORQUE the Pontiac engine produced. He was amazed we were able to maintain 80 mph and pass cars up long steep grades without as much as a downshift. The LS engines don't have the torque of the old Strato-Streak Pontiacs. And torque rules on a street car.

[Sirrotica]

FWIW, there are quite a few members here that own the late model GTO, as well as the old iron, me being one of them. They are 2 different cars, built 40 years apart from each other. I wouldn't expect them to be the same.

FYI, Holden used the Monaro body in Australia years before it was imported to the USA, one of the body/model options was named, guess what, Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) GTO, it was also available in a 4 door, and was called the HSV GTS. Holden already had a GTO, they just exported it to the USA, to be sold under the Pontiac name, by Pontiac dealers.

The second year Pontiac had styling input, and got both tailpipes on opposite sides of the car, along with twin hood scoops. It had a GTO moniker on it long before Bob Lutz commandeered it for sale in the USA by Pontiac dealers. I had a chip on my shoulder too, when it became available, but after test driving one, that chip fell off..........

You guys that live in CA can find old cars that aren't all rusted to hell, back east we don't have that luxury. If you could find an old GTO chances are it would look like this:



The best part, asking price is only $4000, and it's a roller shell, no drivetrain, interior, etc. etc. So we find vehicles that have some metal left in them for drivers. The other alternative is get one that comes from a rust free portion of the country, or pay $50-$60,000 for one that someone else has restored. $60,000 is over twice what paid for my 05 new. It is very expensive for guys back east to have vintage cars. People from the southwest just don't have to deal with rusty hulks that were only meant to be driven, possibly 10 years when they were new.

Because you can find and buy vintage cars in CA, and we have a real tough time finding something, doesn't mean we're not Pontiac fans.

[Gach]

Yeah a friend paid $55,000.00 for a 65 GTO. This is funny standing next to a friend I asked him hey what do you think of Joe’s GTO. He said its just a regular GTO. Its not fast like yours. I laughed…Made me feel good…LOL

Definitely nothing but rust buckets in New England area.

[tom s]

FYI!Calif cars rust from the inside out!Most all after years have front and rear windows that leak.On the front the water goes behind the firewall pads and settels in the foot pans and rust out.The rear goes under the trunk mats and rust the trunk pans out and a lot of time take out the rear frame mounts.Buyers beware!Tom

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Hmmm. Just got back from a 2,715 mile road trip out to Colorado in my stock '67 GTO with born with engine, crank, rods, carb, and points distributor. I rebuilt it in 1988 about 85,000 miles ago. Car is nosing in on 260,000 miles. We averaged 20.6 mpg at a steady 75 mph and used 1/2 quart of oil the entire trip. And surprisingly, had no drivability issues at 8400 feet elevation. Car did not miss a beat. And I've been driving it for the past 40 years with no down time. People that think old tech is not usable or reliable are mis-informed. I even used to commute to work in town in my 103 year old, stock Ford T. Maintained, kept up, repaired as needed when needed, and driven within design parameters, old cars can be dead reliable. Attachment 614301

You missed the point. You could argue you made the same trip in a Model A Ford. You have a bone stock Pontiac as-built by the factory with components capable of a 100,000+ mile life and made be driven wherever a road is paved. You have by every definition a street-car that can be driven anywhere they sell gas but, does your car have the performance of an LS?

In order to match the performance of that LS, your car would have its antique behemoth of an engine propped up by a lumpy aftermarket roller cam and lifters, spring pressures to handle the aggressive lift and heavy valve train, aftermarket roller rockers, aluminum aftermarket heads, aftermarket distributor and ignition. Since the motor would no longer be tractable, a loose convertor, tall gears and a modified Turbo400 trans or an aftermarket overdrive trans would have to be fitted.

Try your trip in one of those so-called street cars and the average, weekend mechanic better keep Enterprise on speed dial, they pick you up.

Correctly performed, swapping in a modest LS engine provides the same level of performance along with the reliability of factory engineered components, longevity and real-world gas mileage. In the O/P's case in particular, the time he has spent behind the wheel would be measured in months instead of minutes. An LS swap can even be carbureted and run a small block Ford distributor if simplicity is your game.

I apologize for derailing the OP's thread and am sympathetic to his situation. Were I in his shoes, given his original goals for the use of the car, I would have "rode the LS wave" so I could enjoy driving instead of owning a garage/shop ornament.

[Gach]

Thats the new trend LS motors in original GTO’s there’s tons of them out there YouTube is full of them. Of course its not for everyone. But I can understand the check writers doing it. Its definitely a different Pontiac world out there. Hey to each his own, what ever floats your boat.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

FWIW, there are quite a few members here that own the late model GTO, as well as the old iron, me being one of them. They are 2 different cars, built 40 years apart from each other. I wouldn't expect them to be the same.

FYI, Holden used the Monaro body in Australia years before it was imported to the USA, one of the body/model options was named, guess what, Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) GTO, it was also available in a 4 door, and was called the HSV GTS. Holden already had a GTO, they just exported it to the USA, to be sold under the Pontiac name, by Pontiac dealers.

The second year Pontiac had styling input, and got both tailpipes on opposite sides of the car, along with twin hood scoops. It had a GTO moniker on it long before Bob Lutz commandeered it for sale in the USA by Pontiac dealers. I had a chip on my shoulder too, when it became available, but after test driving one, that chip fell off..........

You guys that live in CA can find old cars that aren't all rusted to hell, back east we don't have that luxury. If you could find an old GTO chances are it would look like this:



The best part, asking price is only $4000, and it's a roller shell, no drivetrain, interior, etc. etc. So we find vehicles that have some metal left in them for drivers. The other alternative is get one that comes from a rust free portion of the country, or pay $50-$60,000 for one that someone else has restored. $60,000 is over twice what paid for my 05 new. It is very expensive for guys back east to have vintage cars. People from the southwest just don't have to deal with rusty hulks that were only meant to be driven, possibly 10 years when they were new.

Because you can find and buy vintage cars in CA, and we have a real tough time finding something, doesn't mean we're not Pontiac fans.

I paid the $1200 dollars the owner wanted for this car, a real tripower, 4 speed, guages, posi, console car. Zero rust, but the seats and headliner needed help. I didn't even try to talk him down. That was in 1982, and I've been driving it ever since. The trick is, not to get rid of them. I agree that I often forget that most other old car folks don't have it so good with these old rides. Both of my GTO's run the original brake and fuel lines and fuel tanks, etc. as well. That stuff doesn't go bad here.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

You missed the point. You could argue you made the same trip in a Model A Ford. You have a bone stock Pontiac as-built by the factory with components capable of a 100,000+ mile life and made be driven wherever a road is paved. You have by every definition a street-car that can be driven anywhere they sell gas but, does your car have the performance of an LS?

In order to match the performance of that LS, your car would have its antique behemoth of an engine propped up by a lumpy aftermarket roller cam and lifters, spring pressures to handle the aggressive lift and heavy valve train, aftermarket roller rockers, aluminum aftermarket heads, aftermarket distributor and ignition. Since the motor would no longer be tractable, a loose convertor, tall gears and a modified Turbo400 trans or an aftermarket overdrive trans would have to be fitted.

Try your trip in one of those so-called street cars and the average, weekend mechanic better keep Enterprise on speed dial, they pick you up.

Correctly performed, swapping in a modest LS engine provides the same level of performance along with the reliability of factory engineered components, longevity and real-world gas mileage. In the O/P's case in particular, the time he has spent behind the wheel would be measured in months instead of minutes. An LS swap can even be carbureted and run a small block Ford distributor if simplicity is your game.

I apologize for derailing the OP's thread and am sympathetic to his situation. Were I in his shoes, given his original goals for the use of the car, I would have "rode the LS wave" so I could enjoy driving instead of owning a garage/shop ornament.

Ask Derek Bieri how his LS swap is working out for him on the Power Tour. He ended up having to give up and buy a 1966 Ford pickup with analog technology in order to continue.
I disagree: I have driven LS powered cars and they don't have the 445 pounds of torque my old stock 400 has. They need to downshift to get up those steep grades. I've driven my dinosaur to Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Mesa Verde, all over the place for the last 40 years at high speeds and in relative comfort and no down-side. I have zero need to ad a complex, failure-prone, soul-less powerplant to my classic cars. If I want the new car experience, I'll drive a new car.

[Formulajones]

You might be able to buy those rusty hulks cheaper but take it from a guy that makes a living restoring these things, you're money ahead buying a near rust free example if you can find it, even if it's quadruple the price.

With the current trend of pricing in both parts and labor, less people are taking on those full blown restorations and buying something in between, and in a lot of cases not even restoring them, just driving as is. Can't say I blame them with the current economy.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

You might be able to buy those rusty hulks cheaper but take it from a guy that makes a living restoring these things, you're money ahead buying a near rust free example if you can find it, even if it's quadruple the price.

With the current trend of pricing in both parts and labor, less people are taking on those full blown restorations and buying something in between, and in a lot of cases not even restoring them, just driving as is. Can't say I blame them with the current economy.

About 18 months ago I helped a member on the Corvette Forum liquidate a local estate of an uncle. The guy had 12 cars in his backyard, the latest parked there in 1983. Two were 1968 Firebird convertibles, a 326 car and a Sprint 6 car, HO and 4 speed. Both cars were rust and dent free. Original wheels, lug nuts, etc. I tried to sell the pair of them to a California member here for 9k, then 5k for the Sprint. He wanted to go 4k, wanted us to wait, etc. and I told the owner to forget it and ship them back to Chicago, where he is from. He did, and sold the Sprint for 28k and I think the 326 car for 20k. To a guy who had spent over 25k just to do the metal repair on a Camaro convertible of the same vintage. So yeah, no rust is the way to go.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Ask Derek Bieri how his LS swap is working out for him on the Power Tour. He ended up having to give up and buy a 1966 Ford pickup with analog technology in order to continue.
I disagree: I have driven LS powered cars and they don't have the 445 pounds of torque my old stock 400 has. They need to downshift to get up those steep grades. I've driven my dinosaur to Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Mesa Verde, all over the place for the last 40 years at high speeds and in relative comfort and no down-side. I have zero need to ad a complex, failure-prone, soul-less powerplant to my classic cars. If I want the new car experience, I'll drive a new car.

Agree, I've owned 4 LS powered vehicles. They aren't anymore reliable than the classics we've daily driven now for decades.

They do have more creature comforts but my wife and I didn't really care about all that and sold all that new stuff 20-something years ago and went right back to driving the old stuff. I'm to the point I don't really trust anything else anymore. Keep it stupid simple

If you want to compare power, to be honest coming from someone that had these 4th gens when they were new and stock, I raced and scaled all of them. They averaged mid to high 13's at 102-105 mph. The heaviest 4th gen was 3600 lbs. Not bad considering all the safety garbage, air bags, abs, and power everything. So in reality they weren't anymore powerful than a good running stock classic car.

Compare that to some of my stock 50 year old muscle cars and I have a few that run in the 13's at 104-105 mph in bone stock form, yet they also weigh closer to 4000 lbs. Add another 300+ lbs to the 4th Gen LS and watch how it slows down, lol.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the LS platform, but some people put it up on a pedestal like it's a god. I really didn't get happy with the performance of them until I started modding them. Small 224 @ .050 cam, valve spring and pushrod change, headers and exhaust and some tuning, along with a 12 bolt swap with 3.73 gears had my wifes 6 speed daily driver going bottom 12's at 114 mph on street tires. Respectable, but I could do that with any car, doesn't have to be an LS. She also went on to rack up 160,000 miles on that "modified" engine They don't have to be stock to be reliable.

That gets back to what I've said in past threads on that subject in regards to reliability when building these engines. You don't have to build a stock engine to be a reliable engine. You can have a modified 500 or 600 hp engine be completely reliable if done correctly. That means you can't throw these things together with a ball hone and rings, shove a cam in you think works fine with out of the box valve springs etc.. and top it off with Scorpion rockers on those chinese heads that came right out of the box. eeek.. Ya gotta spend the money and do it right. With excellent machine work and good quality parts used inside, proper assembly and attention to detail, as every build should be. Don't assume because it's new it's good and ready to go. These engine can go 100,000 miles and be trouble free. But you're going to spend $10,000 plus on a solid build. That's just the way it is.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Agree, I've owned 4 LS powered vehicles. They aren't anymore reliable than the classics we've daily driven now for decades.

They do have more creature comforts but my wife and I didn't really care about all that and sold all that new stuff 20-something years ago and went right back to driving the old stuff. I'm to the point I don't really trust anything else anymore. Keep it stupid simple

I don't want to hijack this thread, as I agree with 64Speeds direction in keeping it a Pontiac.
In 1985 we were driving from northern CA to Lake Powell in Arizona in our '64 Galaxie with factory AC and a 352 with a 4bbl and a 3.0 rear gear. In the Mojave desert at 80 mph with the AC blowing ice cubes, we passed 3 or 4 new 1984-85 Cadillacs with the hoods up and steam erupting from their blown up 4100 V8 engines. In our 20+ year old car. Had a guy in an LS powered pickup trying to shut me out on a grade and he failed. I guess his truck had a speed limiter. LOL.../.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

You missed the point. You could argue you made the same trip in a Model A Ford. You have a bone stock Pontiac as-built by the factory with components capable of a 100,000+ mile life and made be driven wherever a road is paved. You have by every definition a street-car that can be driven anywhere they sell gas but, does your car have the performance of an LS?

In order to match the performance of that LS, your car would have its antique behemoth of an engine propped up by a lumpy aftermarket roller cam and lifters, spring pressures to handle the aggressive lift and heavy valve train, aftermarket roller rockers, aluminum aftermarket heads, aftermarket distributor and ignition. Since the motor would no longer be tractable, a loose convertor, tall gears and a modified Turbo400 trans or an aftermarket overdrive trans would have to be fitted.

Try your trip in one of those so-called street cars and the average, weekend mechanic better keep Enterprise on speed dial, they pick you up.

Correctly performed, swapping in a modest LS engine provides the same level of performance along with the reliability of factory engineered components, longevity and real-world gas mileage. In the O/P's case in particular, the time he has spent behind the wheel would be measured in months instead of minutes. An LS swap can even be carbureted and run a small block Ford distributor if simplicity is your game.

I apologize for derailing the OP's thread and am sympathetic to his situation. Were I in his shoes, given his original goals for the use of the car, I would have "rode the LS wave" so I could enjoy driving instead of owning a garage/shop ornament.

None of that is true. To match the performance of a LS ? Do you know how easy it is to get 450-500HP out of a Pontiac ? You can use iron heads, not so lumpy cam, stock intake, Q jet, points and it is FAR more reliable than a LS if you know what you are doing and spend the time and money.
More tech, more wires, sensors has its benefits but a downside. More things to break and you have to take the time to learn about fixing problems or pay someone big bucks to fix it.
And if you want to up the power with aluminum heads, roller cam, FI ect you can. And you car is still cool and not lame and weak.
IMO if you want to jack up your car and give it a soulless engine, stuff a LS in it.
Better yet, keep a Pontiac in it or sell it to someone with the intent of keeping a Pontiac in it.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

I don't want to hijack this thread, as I agree with 64Speeds direction in keeping it a Pontiac.
In 1985 we were driving from northern CA to Lake Powell in Arizona in our '64 Galaxie with factory AC and a 352 with a 4bbl and a 3.0 rear gear. In the Mojave desert at 80 mph with the AC blowing ice cubes, we passed 3 or 4 new 1984-85 Cadillacs with the hoods up and steam erupting from their blown up 4100 V8 engines. In our 20+ year old car. Had a guy in an LS powered pickup trying to shut me out on a grade and he failed. I guess his truck had a speed limiter. LOL.../.

Sure that was 85 ? A guy I work with bought the last year of a Chevy truck with a sbc. It was the early 2000s.

Anyway that reminds me of a camping trip I took with some HS friends my senior year in 1983. On the drive there was this long straight hill. It goes from 2 lanes to at least 4 lanes, so its steep. Trucks have to really slow down.
Our group had a 67 327 Camero and a hot 327. A 396 El Camino, a 351 65 Mustang Fastback, and a 327 El Camino pulling that long hill with my 69 GTO 4 speed 400.
Everyone of them dropped a gear, I just hit the gas and it was not even close. Pulled away from everyone of them.
They all got rid of their cars, not me.

[PAUL K]

Remember when the LS Corvette engines were dropping valves all the time and literally grenading the engines? We fixed a chit ton of those heads. Everyone wanted them repaired "just incase"...... Don't recall the old Pontiac engine having that issue.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Ask Derek Bieri how his LS swap is working out for him on the Power Tour. He ended up having to give up and buy a 1966 Ford pickup with analog technology in order to continue.
I disagree: I have driven LS powered cars and they don't have the 445 pounds of torque my old stock 400 has. They need to downshift to get up those steep grades. I've driven my dinosaur to Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Mesa Verde, all over the place for the last 40 years at high speeds and in relative comfort and no down-side. I have zero need to ad a complex, failure-prone, soul-less powerplant to my classic cars. If I want the new car experience, I'll drive a new car.

Again, your engine is stock and not chock full of failure prone aftermarket parts. Your car probably runs fine for an old car but is not up to the performance, mileage and low maintenance standards of an LS engine in a similar car. I own a lightly modified 1971 GTO 455 (RAIVish cam, headers, intake, convertor, 3.55 gears, pro-touring suspension and 4 wheel disc brake conversion, aluminum radiator, yada yada yada). It's a wonderful car to drive around town, for a 1971 Pontiac. If I'm headed down to Nashville or Branson for a change of scenery, I wouldn't even give the GTO a second thought as the right car for a trip like that.

The LS is far from soul-less, they're among the best V8's Detroit has ever built and have become ubiquitous like the prior SBC because they perform so well.

[Dragncar]

They are soulless and the easy way out for someone not good enough or smart enough to build a reliable high powered street engine. It takes a certain amount of tenacity, intestinal fortitude to stay the course and is a quality I highly respect.
This is the largest Pontiac forum on earth.
The Pontiac platform might just well get beat by Chevy, Ford and Mopar on most of the high end racing spectrum.
But the Pontiac platform is the best on the street.
Now my wife knows how I am about this subject. She does have to live with me as I spend lots of money on my car.
But she knows in a instant when a new Pontiac shows up at the track if its a Pontiac, by the sound the engine makes.
They must make that sound a Pontiac makes to be cool in her book. I married a good one.

Being a fan of the Pontiac is all about the engine, the engine,the engine. The rest is just a shell the same as Chevy, Olds and Buick.

[Sirrotica]

If you think LS engines never have internal troubles, your living in a dream world. Google LS common problems, that ought to get you started.

By the same token if you had a 5-600 HP LS engine, or for that matter a SBC you wouldn't take it on a 1000 mile trip either. You get over 450 HP on any engine platform and it gets less and less reliable, no mater if it was made in 1970 or 2020.

I own Stratostreak powered, cars as well as an LS GTO, and BBC in a dually truck, plus 2, 6.5 Detroit Diesel trucks and a 7.3 IDI International Harvester wrecker, Add in a Toyota powered Pontiac Vibe just for good measure. I own a good cross section of cars and trucks, I've also raced cars, notably Pontiac powered ones. I also have twisted wrenches for my living for over 50 years, seen a lot of stuff break, and had to fix it when it did, no novice here.

Lowest mileage car I own has 148,000 miles on it, the highest 350,000, most are over 200,000 miles. Mostly built with OEM parts. No one expects to take a race engine and go on vacation with it, use some sense here. A LS race engine isn't going to go 1000 miles any more trouble free than a 50 YO Pontiac engine is.

How many 700 plus HP suoercharged Challengers are going to see 200,000 miles? likely zero. You start stressing parts that much and stuff breaks, no matter who made it, engineered it, or what materials it is made from.

I own an LS engine for 18 years now, If I start pushing it much over 450 HP, I expect the weakest link is going to show up.

I spend a lot of time around 410 Sprint cars, which are for the most part SBC based with all aftermarket parts. 900-950HP naturally aspirated on methanol, best parts money can buy. They get 15-20 nights out of one before it starts loosing power, and has to go in for a refresh. One night is approximately 50-55 laps per night of racing, or about 1000 laps before it needs to be gone through. Mileage,3-400 miles between refreshes.

The Sprint car world tried switching some teams over to LS power, the SBC based engines lasted longer than the LS based engines did. You probably didn't know that little tidbit, but it happened.

The more power you ring out of an engine, the more they are likely to fail, it's just that simple