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#41
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Definitely not the original alternator, distributor etc. so nothing to help answer questions there. In fact, the block is the only thing I've found that matches the car. Not the tranny nor the rear end. That's why I'd never claim it as a matching numbers car.
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Greg Reid Palmetto, Georgia |
#42
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65 gto what month / year is concidered an early build is 11/28/64 an early build for a 65 gto ? please reply
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#43
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I wouldn't call that early. Early would be in the summer of '64... Like July-August
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Greg Reid Palmetto, Georgia |
#44
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the model year was typically september of the prior calendar year through to august of the same (as model) year.
On occasion the “early” versus “late” has to do with a date which denoted a change in equipment. Eg: Spring(?) 1973 emissions revision for 1973 model year vehicles
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1970 Formula 400 Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car. Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left. 1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing) 2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs) |
#45
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Production for the 1965 model year started on 8/24/1964 (in Pontiac Michigan, I assume).
K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Keith Seymore For This Useful Post: | ||
#46
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Early is such a relative term. My ‘64 GTO was produced 11/20/63 at Fremont (for historical perspective, the Wednesday before JFK was shot).
I consider it relatively early because GTO sales hadn’t yet exploded, the bulk of the mag articles, especially the March Car and Driver article came later and a spike in GTO sales occurred in March and April from the records I’ve collected. Sales of the ‘65 GTO were strong from the outset. Keith notes the start of production. In the first few days, line speed wasn’t yet cranked up as bugs were worked out. Then there was the strike. The walkout occurred in late Sept (check the history books for the exact date) and production was halted. Production resumed after the strike was settled just before Election Day (LBJ wasn’t happy with the UAW as it was embarrassing to his presidency although the election results show it did little harm) and ramped up pretty quickly after that. I believe the Pontiac Plant produced close to 300,000 cars for the ‘65 model year. Assuming yours was produced there, if the VIN was within maybe 5% of the total, that’s pretty early. Say lower than P115000 relative to the roughly 95% built at the Pontiac Plant after that. And assuming the percentage of GTOs remained fairly constant, you can guess that of the approximately 35,000 GTOs built at the Pontiac Plant (my rough estimate), roughly 33,250 were later builds. But early isn’t especially meaningful except for situations as unruhjonny points out where a running change results in the need to distinguish between early and late builds. One such early vs. late distinction for ‘65 IIRC was the change from the “rebuildable” fuel pump to the disposable type. I don’t recall if this affected the GTO.. I believe there was an alternator p/n change during ‘65 that has been discussed here in the past. |
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#47
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I've had both our '64 GTO's judged, one by GTOAA in Dayton, 2013, and one by POCI at Wisconsin Dells in 2018. Both were awarded Concours Gold.
I don't understand the angst over date codes. The judges made no mention of date codes on either car. I provided PHS documentation for both at each event. The date codes on the Tr-Power intake manifold in '64 are not visible with carbs in place. The date codes on the cylinder heads are under the rocker arm covers. The carb tags plainly show date codes, but tags are easily transferable between carbs, which are the same casting numbers from 1964 through 1965. The date codes on the engine block and distributor are difficult to see, so neither set of judges looked at those. They did dock points for a throttle cable they claimed was aftermarket, unpainted trunk latch, painted fuel door springs, oil residue on fuel pump, and painted brake master cylinders (should be plain cast iron). Both cars also have '67 HO exhaust manifolds and radial tires, for which points were deducted. Not a single mention was made with either car about date codes. Where does all this angst come from?
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BONESTOCK GOATS '64 GTO Tripower Hardtop (Wife's Car) '64 GTO Tripower Post Coupe (My Car) '99 Bonneville SE Sedan |
#48
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I think “angst” is the wrong word;
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=define+angst … because no body uses “let me google that for you” any more I think that typically when people are looking for replacement parts, and since parts on the car affect value, they will often strive to find the most correct possible. The other factor is that if a block might go for (let’s say) $400 - the date code would have absolutely no bearing on the cost of said block, so discerning people might wait for the right one rather than swap in the first one that comes along. Congrats on concours gold!! You’re also lucky that the date codes are pretty much all hidden - this isn’t typically the case for most of these cars; If those codes were out in the open, I’d suspect the judges would have looked for them.
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1970 Formula 400 Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car. Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left. 1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing) 2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs) |
#49
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PMD engine plant cast, machined, assembled and painted the engine.
The vehicle assembly plant "dressed" the engine... Alternator Starter Coil Fan AC compressor PS pump Engine mounts More likely that the engine plant held back an engine than the vehicle plant, though this was possible too if there was an issue. Worse case scenario would be partial VIN stamped onto block ('68+), installed into vehicle, then discovered to have an issue requiring a new engine assembly. Vehicle plant repair wouldn't be changing engine internals. They'd pull another engine per Broadcast and stamp that with correct VIN. Theoretically, it would possible for en engine to go from casting to install within a few days, especially if it went into the Pontiac assembly plant.
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John '68 Firebird Ram Air 4-spd Conv. John 14:6 Semper Fi |
#50
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The engine in my GTO was cast nine days before the completed vehicle shipped.
K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
#51
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Quote:
Early cars had a Tach with a full green stripe without a Redline. Later cars had a Redline after 5200+/- Have forgotten that general rule of thumb but I believe your Nov 28 would have the (early) All-Green stripe tach. If that is your quandry. |
#52
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Have a Fremont built 65 GTO, numbers matching
Time Built Code = 06E, 5th week of June Engine Cast Date = F265 = June 26th Block definitely didnt sit around in inventory By the way how did Pontiac define a week - Sunday at midnight to Saturday at midnight?? |
#53
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Quote:
I am fairly certain the tach is original as it is a TI tach and this car had TI on it originally . |
#54
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Quote:
K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
#55
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Quote:
Quote:
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
#56
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Thanks Keith
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#57
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So my '69 Firebird with a January '69 build date and engine date code of Sept. '69 indicates that it is probably not correct?
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1969 Firebird 350 convertible, t-5, Carousel Red 2008 Solstice GXP 5speed manual, Sly 2008 Grand Prix, Ink Slate, Winter daily driver 2009 G8, Switchblade Silver, summer daily driver |
#58
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See what the partial VIN on the engine shows. It will tell if it is original?
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John Wallace - johnta1 Pontiac Power RULES !!! www.wallaceracing.com Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever! "Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates |
#59
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Quote:
The engine should not be built after the completed vehicle. K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
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