[Sirrotica]

I don't get the room under the good comment at all. The canister is 5 inches in diameter and 5 inches tall. The size of a roll of toilet paper? Fits under the hood of my 05 GTO.

Can be mounted to the core support, in the trunk, anywhere.

Ted described the by pass filter system quite well.

Keep using the factory filter and keep all the dirt right in the oil pan, good idea!!

[Sirrotica]

Never seen so many people resitant to change that will only benefit them. Whatever, forget I ever mentioned it, keep struggling with dirt in the oil.

[Tim Corcoran]

Paul Carter and others, just an FYI Hy-Lift Johnson does not make hydraulic roller lifters for a Pontiac, they only make hyd and solid flat tappet lifters for Pontiac and those are correct lifter bodies for a Pontiac.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Careful what you ask for...

.

Your free to explain it to him/Quick Silver, if you know more about keeping oil clean than I do.

If anyone wants to know more about by pass filters I suggest googling it, lots of good information that may save you time and money.
.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Since dirt is suspect in some of these hydraulic roller lifter problems, why is it everyone still keeps using the crappy full flow oil filter that continues to allow the finer dirt to continue to circulate?

Seems to me someone might save themselves money and time by having a real oil filter (read by pass filter) that removes all the particulate.

I know that a real oil filter doesn't guarantee that these problematic lifters won't be noisy, but it won't hurt to have something to actually clean the oil completely, rather than only cleaning the larger stuff as a factory issue full flow filter does.

The technology isn't new and it works quite well to insure your oil is clean all the time, not just when you pour in fresh oil and it begins becoming tainted when the engine fires, and then goes downhill from there.

But what do I know?

I don't typically like to be the guy that whines about people that get off-topic, but I can't help but feel like you are crowding this thread with a bunch of information that is, at best, tangential to the discussion at hand. I don't want any hard feelings, god knows I've done enough of that sort of thing myself, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by i82much

I don't typically like to be the guy that whines about people that get off-topic, but I can't help but feel like you are crowding this thread with a bunch of information that is, at best, tangential to the discussion at hand. I don't want any hard feelings, god knows I've done enough of that sort of thing myself, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.

Point taken.

If dirt/contaminants hadn't already been mentioned as a possible cause of noisy hydraulic roller lifters I wouldn't have mentioned it. It was mentioned in an earlier post previously and there is a solution for removing smaller particulate from the oil that a standard filter cannot remove. Simple as that.

As I have witnessed by his question, not everyone is aware of by pass filters, to keep oil clean from start to finish preventing wear and clogging of very small passages in hydraulic roller lifters.

The general conscientious is that small dirt in the oil is fine, even if it may cause you trouble down the road.

It's all good.

[Sirrotica]

I will add that a good majority of my work history involved working on hydraulic machinery. Since we're talking hydraulic lifters a 40 micron filter (standard full flow oil filter capability) would never be adequate in a hydraulic system due to the systems inability to tolerate matter that large. 5-10 microns is typically the micron size a filter in a hydraulic system, by pass filters are 1-2 microns. Just sayin.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Point taken.

If dirt/contaminants hadn't already been mentioned as a possible cause of noisy hydraulic roller lifters I wouldn't have mentioned it. It was mentioned in an earlier post previously and there is a solution for removing smaller particulate from the oil that a standard filter cannot remove. Simple as that.

As I have witnessed by his question, not everyone is aware of by pass filters, to keep oil clean from start to finish preventing wear and clogging of very small passages in hydraulic roller lifters.

The general conscientious is that small dirt in the oil is fine, even if it may cause you trouble down the road.

It's all good.

No worries. For my part, I probably won't sweat my oil filter until I first figure out whether I've got the right damned lifters!

[Tim Corcoran]

Please forgive me for going off topic here. Not to dispute the benefits of better filtration as I believe better filtration is a good thing. On the other hand the modern automobile has hydraulic roller lifters, almost all of them do now days and the lifters don't tick and they use the same type of oil filtration system that Pontiac used 50 years ago. It's not unusual for the modern car to go 300,000 miles and beyond on the original engine without ticking hydraulic valve lifters and without upgrading the oil filtration system. The problem with the aftermarket retrofit Pontiac hydraulic roller lifters is not due to poor filtration.

[78w72]

hate to say it, & dont want to start an argument or debate with sirrotica about filters (again) but i agree with 182much & tim & tom on theor points... for a couple years now i have seen the bypass filter thing thrown into threads that really have nothing to do with a bypass filter. a simple suggestion is ok, but constantly telling people how they are ruining their engines & that we all think its ok to have dirt in our engines... yada yada yada

you also say we will save money, i have pointed out before that it will take years & years to even break even after buying a bypass filter for hundreds of dollars. the majority of people use standard oils in their street cars, some guys will buy the high zddp stuff for a little more $$ & very few run expensive synthetics in their classic FT cam or Hyd roller pontiac STREET engines, so for the most part most people wont save any money. yes the oil will last longer with a bypass, but the additives in the oil do wear out & oil does break down, especially in higher HP engines which many of us have & occasionally race... oil shear is a major concern that no filter will stop.

as for wear... i fully agree a bypass filter filters better, please dont re-explain how it does that... but, most people put very few miles on their cars, & thats what... wait for it... oil changes are for. majority of people change their oil in their classic cars pretty religously, most every season with far less than 3000 miles on them. so on newer rebuilt engines that most of these cars are, there is very little "dirt" in the engine causing excessive wear... & fact is that most engines, pontiac or modern, go for 100k-200k+ miles without any excessive wear to the engine internals with factory filters, usually the car or other parts break down long before the motor fails due to "dirt" in the micron sizes ruining the engine. now for high mileage fleets or over the road semi trucks etc, i agree there is an advantage to a bypass filter... for the classic street car group, not so much. many of our cars are original or close to it or quality restorations that as mentioned, simply dont want a big canister with a few feet of oil hoses ran to it... too much hassle for the very small advantage & it looks tacky too IMO.

as for this thread & noisy HR lifters.. the "dirt" i think most are talking about is whats in them from manufacturing, i have seen small sand like (but not sand) debris in both the old comps & the newer 857s, it washed right out with some paint thinner, & when i asked comp they said it shouldnt hurt anything, the engine oil will wash it right out & its a soft material anyways that you can crush with your fingers... the stock filter will filter that out perfectly fine. IMO, a bypass filter probably wont do much, if anything, for the noise issue on a HR lifter... im pretty sure the size of debris that gets past a stock filter is not big enough to clog any oil passages in a lifter.

again, not trying to argue or go back & forth about how we are ruining our engines not using a bypass filter so please dont go there on this thread... you stated your opinions on bypass filters... i/we can state ours. or as you said... just sayin.

its all good.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 78w72

hate to say it, & dont want to start an argument or debate with sirrotica about filters (again) but i agree with 182much & tim & tom on theor points... for a couple years now i have seen the bypass filter thing thrown into threads that really have nothing to do with a bypass filter. a simple suggestion is ok, but constantly telling people how they are ruining their engines & that we all think its ok to have dirt in our engines... yada yada yada

you also say we will save money, i have pointed out before that it will take years & years to even break even after buying a bypass filter for hundreds of dollars. the majority of people use standard oils in their street cars, some guys will buy the high zddp stuff for a little more $$ & very few run expensive synthetics in their classic FT cam or Hyd roller pontiac STREET engines, so for the most part most people wont save any money. yes the oil will last longer with a bypass, but the additives in the oil do wear out & oil does break down, especially in higher HP engines which many of us have & occasionally race... oil shear is a major concern that no filter will stop.

as for wear... i fully agree a bypass filter filters better, please dont re-explain how it does that... but, most people put very few miles on their cars, & thats what... wait for it... oil changes are for. majority of people change their oil in their classic cars pretty religously, most every season with far less than 3000 miles on them. so on newer rebuilt engines that most of these cars are, there is very little "dirt" in the engine causing excessive wear... & fact is that most engines, pontiac or modern, go for 100k-200k+ miles without any excessive wear to the engine internals with factory filters, usually the car or other parts break down long before the motor fails due to "dirt" in the micron sizes ruining the engine. now for high mileage fleets or over the road semi trucks etc, i agree there is an advantage to a bypass filter... for the classic street car group, not so much. many of our cars are original or close to it or quality restorations that as mentioned, simply dont want a big canister with a few feet of oil hoses ran to it... too much hassle for the very small advantage & it looks tacky too IMO.

as for this thread & noisy HR lifters.. the "dirt" i think most are talking about is whats in them from manufacturing, i have seen small sand like (but not sand) debris in both the old comps & the newer 857s, it washed right out with some paint thinner, & when i asked comp they said it shouldnt hurt anything, the engine oil will wash it right out & its a soft material anyways that you can crush with your fingers... the stock filter will filter that out perfectly fine. IMO, a bypass filter probably wont do much, if anything, for the noise issue on a HR lifter... im pretty sure the size of debris that gets past a stock filter is not big enough to clog any oil passages in a lifter.

again, not trying to argue or go back & forth about how we are ruining our engines not using a bypass filter so please dont go there on this thread... you stated your opinions on bypass filters... i/we can state ours. or as you said... just sayin.

its all good.

Post #211 by Tom S

tom s
Ultimate Warrior

Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 11,699
Default
I have been told that many of the hyd roller problems have actually been pointed to dirt.They dont like anything but clean oil.Tom

My response was to this post..................

Now if you want to contradict Tom, you go right ahead...............

Seems everyone has an opinion about what causes the current hydraulic roller lifters to tick and extremely clean oil was one of the points mentioned.

If no one bothers to try a better oil filter then no one actually knows if this is a contributing factor, do they?

So in the grand scheme of things, I wasn't the poster that mentioned that clean oil makes the lifter work better. I just followed up with a suggestion that there are ways to keep the oil extremely clean.

Carry on.

[tom s]

Dave brought up a good point on single springs.He likes duals incase you break one the other might hold the valve from hitting the piston.Im going to check if the dampner in the spring might do the same.If not will order a new set of springs.Always good to ask more than one or two opinions.Tom

[Steve C.]

I had that happen, broke a inner coil and limped home.


.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

Please forgive me for going off topic here. Not to dispute the benefits of better filtration as I believe better filtration is a good thing. On the other hand the modern automobile has hydraulic roller lifters, almost all of them do now days and the lifters don't tick and they use the same type of oil filtration system that Pontiac used 50 years ago. It's not unusual for the modern car to go 300,000 miles and beyond on the original engine without ticking hydraulic valve lifters and without upgrading the oil filtration system. The problem with the aftermarket retrofit Pontiac hydraulic roller lifters is not due to poor filtration.

And I can attest to this as my 99 Monte Carlo 3.1 has 279,000 miles on it and is completely quiet.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

Paul Carter and others, just an FYI Hy-Lift Johnson does not make hydraulic roller lifters for a Pontiac, they only make hyd and solid flat tappet lifters for Pontiac and those are correct lifter bodies for a Pontiac.

No, they now make hyd. rollers for Pontiac. I have a set at work right now. Only problem is they are Chevy bodies, like everyone else. The oil hole in the block needs to be lowered for them to work right.It's hard for me to believe that the people who make lifters don't understand the importance of where the oil band sits. They, of all people, should realize it.

[gtofreek]

As for the engine I started this thread about, it does not have dirty oil, so that is not the issue. This is a zero mileage engine that made noise right from the start.

Here is a youtube video of how it sounded before modification.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrtM...ature=youtu.be

Here is after the modification. Still has a couple noisy lifters. It's probably bad lifters as nothing quiets them down, except when you adjust it, it quiets down for a second or so, then makes noise again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0XB...ature=youtu.be

[gtofreek]

We tried 10/30 oil as well as 20/50 and neither made any difference.

[gtofreek]

TomS, be careful with that single spring, even with a damper. It probably has a lot of coil bind height[probably at least .200"-.300"], and they can become very unstable at higher RPM's. A good example was a BB Chevy we freshened for a guy. He had a solid roller in it, but decided to go to a Hyd. roller during the freshen up. Of course he didn't want to fork out for valve springs unless he absolutely needed to, so he asked if we could take the inner spring out. I tested the outer spring by itself, and it made 160 lbs. on the seat, and around 350 open, so we thought it might work. On the dyno, it quit pulling at 5600-5700 rpm, and fell flat on its face. Acted just like it didn't have enough spring. We ended up getting some beehive springs, and retainers from Comp. They set up around 140 on the seat, and around 330 open. On the dyno, it pulled to 6300 rpm without a problem. The single spring with damper just couldn't handle the valve train, where the beehive with less pressure handled it just fine. Most single spring applications are lower RPM, and lower performance use. If you're planning on running yours hard, you might want to rethink the single spring.

I also agree with Dave about having a second spring to keep the valve out of the piston.

[wheneaglesfly]

I thought about the Problem on hand early this morning.
Took my 1963 Grand Prix for a Ride in the Rain.

You have the Right Idea Paul, GTOFREAK.
Slot milling like you did each Hydraulic roller lifter bidy.

More oil volume delivered is required .

The manufacturers are unlikely to correct.
Impractical to re machine all engines out there retrofitted.

What needs to be done tried is buying another set of Chevy Hyd Roller lifters.
Take each lifter apart.
Keep guts indexed organized for each lifter.

EDM MACHINE THE CORRECT PONTIAC V8 OIL BAND IN.
Specialized Aerospace style machining.

[tom s]

Paul,I talked to Joe about the springs also.He like you said it will loose performance at upper RPMs.This engine does not get beat on anymore.It is geared to cruiose the highway at 65 MPH at 2000 RPMs.That was a reason beside money to use the single.Im going to go over to Isky monday and talk to them .My installed height is 1.925.One other thing I learned is that when going from a solid roller lifter set at 6 thou and then a hyd roller as the cam was intended has the effect of about 8 degrees of duration according to Comp.Joe Sherman who has tested many engines on his own dyno says in his findings its closer to 12.As I said it sounds much more radical than the solids but very quiet.FWIW,Tom