[gtofreek]

The problem with hydraulic roller is you can't take the lifter apart because the tie bars are riveted in place. You would have to cut the rivets off, then re-rivet them back on. Something most people have no way of doing. Can't even take them apart to clean them.

Hey, this is post 5252! The magic number for figuring HP!

Originally Posted by wheneaglesfly

I thought about the Problem on hand early this morning.
Took my 1963 Grand Prix for a Ride in the Rain.

You have the Right Idea Paul, GTOFREAK.
Slot milling like you did each Hydraulic roller lifter bidy.

More oil volume delivered is required .

The manufacturers are unlikely to correct.
Impractical to re machine all engines out there retrofitted.

What needs to be done tried is buying another set of Chevy Hyd Roller lifters.
Take each lifter apart.
Keep guts indexed organized for each lifter.

EDM MACHINE THE CORRECT PONTIAC V8 OIL BAND IN.
Specialized Aerospace style machining.

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

The problem with hydraulic roller is you can't take the lifter apart because the tie bars are riveted in place. You would have to cut the rivets off, then re-rivet them back on. Something most people have no way of doing. Can't even take them apart to clean them.

Hey, this is post 5252! The magic number for figuring HP!

LOL Paul.

Did not think of that Link Tie bar & Rivets.

Almost need to buy a batch of 1,000 Chevy Hydraulic Roller lifters Jobber price.
Most likely sub out a specialty small machine shop equipped right for the tasks on hand.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by tom s

Paul,I talked to Joe about the springs also.He like you said it will loose performance at upper RPMs.This engine does not get beat on anymore.It is geared to cruiose the highway at 65 MPH at 2000 RPMs.That was a reason beside money to use the single.Im going to go over to Isky monday and talk to them .My installed height is 1.925.One other thing I learned is that when going from a solid roller lifter set at 6 thou and then a hyd roller as the cam was intended has the effect of about 8 degrees of duration according to Comp.Joe Sherman who has tested many engines on his own dyno says in his findings its closer to 12.As I said it sounds much more radical than the solids but very quiet.FWIW,Tom

Tom-

Could you take this as an implication the solids are giving up some power over the hydraulics?

[tom s]

Joes says yes.When he goes from a hyd roller to a solid roller he ads 12 degrees duration.FWIW,Tom

[Steve C.]

Not to dispute Tom (or Joe) as I put a great amount of faith in all his input on these threads. This presented just for a fwiw....

I have had people dispute these numbers, and it seems a bit odd, but Mr. Godbold a tech manager at Comp Cams suggested in a tech article that a rule of thumb is for every 0.001 inch of valve lash it is worth roughly half a degree of duration. Example, in order to account for a lash of 0.016 inch you must remove 8 degrees from the 0.050-inch duration figure. This was in conversation regarding a solid cam.

And to further complicant the issue I asked my Comp Rep after reading that. His reply,
"Yes you would see a decrease in the advertised duration after setting the valve lash also. Just like the duration at .050, the advertised duration numbers are before lash is figured out."


I was told that running Crower solid roller lifters on the Old Faithful hydraulic cam by someone with experience that sets his at .005" that when he checked his several times the valves grow about .002 intake and .003 on the exhaust. This opens up clearance to around .007-.008” hot.

.

[LPI]

In general (and I am asking in regards to a lifter manufacturers request) what are the following:

1. Type of oil viscosity generally used or preferred and why?
2. What is the general oil temp operating temperature (Hi's low's seen)
3. What is the intake exhaust lobe lift numbers ie bigger or smaller than a .400" lobe?
4. What are typical duration numbers I/E?
5. Do you know your base circle diameter or radius?

For reference the lifter bore oil feed holes in a traditional Pontiac block are .228" in diameter and are set at 1.950/1.960" off the center line of the camshaft tunnel.

This allows the oil hole to start at about .75" up from the bottom of the lifter bore and stops at 1.075" approximately up from the bottom of the lifter bore.

In this scenario with a "Chevy" lifter band which is generally lower than a Pontiac lifter band the oil hole would be covered when the lifter is on at least 180 degrees of camshaft rotation (base circle area).

There are no promises but a lifter manufacturer is looking at possibly creating a new "Pontiac/Olds" type lifter body to work with the factory lifter bores. Meaning a new lifter oil band setup.

I will report back with more details once they give the OK. So long story short they are listening to you and they are paying attention to these threads and they do believe that this is a viable market.

[LPI]

Back to topic, this is the reason why Paul's modification is needed and works to keep oil going into the lifter oil band on a lifter body designed with a "Chevy" position during the full 360 degrees of camshaft rotation.

Since the lifters are hard I would not recommend this to be done on a traditional (Acme lead screw) manual Bridgeport mill where you would have to use conventional milling.

This would need to be done with a Kurt vise or fixture with a 6 flute coated carbide hi helix end mill with climb milling capabilities (ball type lead screws)

To machine the lifter body like Paul mentioned with a 5/16" end mill you would have to go up from the top of the oil band about .300".

I would agree with Paul that modifying the block would be easier.

[tom s]

Well,changed the oil and filter,set the timing at 38 total which leaves me at 12 int.Took it for a pretty good ride,water temp was 160,idle oil pressure is 40 at 1100,goes right to 60 and holds it with 10-30 mobil 1.No lifter ticking at all even on the fire up.When we put them in we primed them by just cranking the engine untill we saw oil.Took it up to about 4K a few time(wild me).So far so good.4 for 4 on the new sissy lifters.Tom

[tom s]

Steve,dont shoot the messenger!LOL

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by tom s

Well,changed the oil and filter,set the timing at 38 total which leaves me at 12 int.Took it for a pretty good ride,water temp was 160,idle oil pressure is 40 at 1100,goes right to 60 and holds it with 10-30 mobil 1.No lifter ticking at all even on the fire up.When we put them in we primed them by just cranking the engine untill we saw oil.Took it up to about 4K a few time(wild me).So far so good.4 for 4 on the new sissy lifters.Tom

Did you soak them overnight?

[tom s]

I did not,just did what the comp directions said.I just wiped them off,just made sure lots of oil on the body and dropped them in.Tom

[jonmachota78]

It looks like the new comp hyd rollers can be disassembled. The cylindrical lifter body only extends up on the tie bar side. The "back" side of the cylinder has been notched out so it looks like the plunger can slide out of the notch before hitting the tie bar. The old style lifters retained the plungers with a snap ring. The new style is retained with what looks like a spiral lock. The spiral lock may be a pain to deal with. Since the oil band is higher on the new style I can't think of a reason to disassemble them unless a guy wanted to clean them, or diagnose a failure. Jon

[Steve C.]

"Steve,dont shoot the messenger!LOL"

No Tom not all. I just posted that info for general input and don't even know if it is correct. It's from Comp


.

[tom s]

Joes guy at Comp told him 8?Will ask my guy next time I talk to him.As said Joes experience is closer to 12.Tom

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by LPI

In general (and I am asking in regards to a lifter manufacturers request) what are the following:

1. Type of oil viscosity generally used or preferred and why?
2. What is the general oil temp operating temperature (Hi's low's seen)
3. What is the intake exhaust lobe lift numbers ie bigger or smaller than a .400" lobe?
4. What are typical duration numbers I/E?
5. Do you know your base circle diameter or radius?

For reference the lifter bore oil feed holes in a traditional Pontiac block are .228" in diameter and are set at 1.950/1.960" off the center line of the camshaft tunnel.

This allows the oil hole to start at about .75" up from the bottom of the lifter bore and stops at 1.075" approximately up from the bottom of the lifter bore.

In this scenario with a "Chevy" lifter band which is generally lower than a Pontiac lifter band the oil hole would be covered when the lifter is on at least 180 degrees of camshaft rotation (base circle area).

There are no promises but a lifter manufacturer is looking at possibly creating a new "Pontiac/Olds" type lifter body to work with the factory lifter bores. Meaning a new lifter oil band setup.

I will report back with more details once they give the OK. So long story short they are listening to you and they are paying attention to these threads and they do believe that this is a viable market.

Great news.

[Steve C.]

Tom, it will be interesting on your report from Comp.

Again for interest only. I have further information from Comp that relates the effects of lash on duration. On Comp XE solid roller lobe #4873 (rated 236 @.050). In theory they state with a 1.5 rocker ratio that lobe has 243 degrees duration delivered 'to the valve' with .012" lash. They report with .016" lash it delivers 241 degrees. This follows the information I mentioned here, where they state that a rule of thumb is for every 0.001 inch of valve lash it is worth roughly half a degree of duration.

Something to consider when some choose to run solid roller lifters on a hydraulic roller lobe with .008" lash under running conditions.

.

[wheneaglesfly]

Pictures ?

You Tube Video with CC Lifters running and Passing H-car going 202 mph & You passing 210 mph ?

[krisr]

My 2c in the ring, I run a butler spec 242/248@0.050 hyd roller cam in my 400 with Comp 857 hyd roller lifters, not 1 issue - no unwanted noises, doesn't sound like a sewing machine. The build sheet on the heads shows Lunati springs installed @ 1.8" with 141/373 pressures. Call Butlers for specifics on the cam dimensions if it helps, but my engine has no issues, even with the old XR288HR cam aswell (same lifters used on both cams). HTH

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by LPI

Back to topic, this is the reason why Paul's modification is needed and works to keep oil going into the lifter oil band on a lifter body designed with a "Chevy" position during the full 360 degrees of camshaft rotation.

Since the lifters are hard I would not recommend this to be done on a traditional (Acme lead screw) manual Bridgeport mill where you would have to use conventional milling.

This would need to be done with a Kurt vise or fixture with a 6 flute coated carbide hi helix end mill with climb milling capabilities (ball type lead screws)

To machine the lifter body like Paul mentioned with a 5/16" end mill you would have to go up from the top of the oil band about .300".

I would agree with Paul that modifying the block would be easier.

The new Comp/Shaver lifters have the oil band approx 1/4" higher that other manufacturers.

[Tim Corcoran]

Paul, I didn't know that Hy-Lift Johnson started making hyd rollers for Pontiac. When I still had Tomahawk Performance I was a Hy-lift Johnson dealer and had asked them a couple of times if they would offer them for Pontiac and they said they would at some point. They make a great hyd flat tappet lifter for Pontiac, too bad they are using Chevy bodies for their hyd rollers and messing up a lot of people to think they would work correctly in a Pontiac.

I thought maybe you were confusing Hy-Lift Johnson with Johnson Lifter, as they make hyd rollers for Pontiac. Have you tried the Johnson Lifter hyd rollers for Pontiac?