[Ram Air I]

I can end the speculation about the WS for the Judge in question. See the attached order and the sales invoice (dealer internal invoice) for THAT car.

Regarding the shipping charges: It was my understanding that the policy was changed so any dealer anywhere within the continental United States payed the exact same for a similar car. For example, we paid the same for a Trans Am to be shipped to us as the dealers in Maine.

My photo scans are too big to upload. Is there a way for this forum to reduce them or do I need to do that before attempting to.

[Keith Seymore]

RamAir -

If you have a photo hosting site, like Photobucket, you can also grab the "Image ID" and paste it directly into your post.

It will look like this:

{IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/000_3513.jpg[/IMG]

(I changed that first bracket, so that you could see the actual HTML text).

The image will then appear directly in the post, regardless of image size:



K

[John V.]

Ram Air I, I am certain that the Judge for the W.S. was a Dealer Ordered car, order submitted by Hardin, just based on the W.S. record as I explained in the previous post.

Since the VIN is also identified on the internal invoice record, no question those two are connected.

My question, how are you able to tie the Dealer Order record to the W.S.?

Since the scan is cut off on the right edge, I can't match up all of the options from the Order Form to the W.S./internal invoice records.

But even if those are a match, on the Dealer Order the box "Customer or Tag For" is noted as Rammon Dickson. The Dealer Order is also checked to show the order was "pre-sold" versus for Dealer Stock.

The internal invoice shows the car was sold to Mary J. Edwards.

I'm guessing the files were such that you are certain all this paperwork was for the same car. Just wondering if you know why the order identifies a different customer name than the internal invoice?

I see that it was hand written on the order "Est. Build Date - 4 8 69". I wonder if the estimate was based on input from the Zone after the Order was submitted or just a guess by the salesman when he wrote up the Order?

[428RA4]

Sorry I missed seeing this car during the Bay Area club get together. I was on my way up and had an engine failure.

[Ram Air I]

Originally Posted by John V.

Ram Air I, I am certain that the Judge for the W.S. was a Dealer Ordered car, order submitted by Hardin, just based on the W.S. record as I explained in the previous post.

Since the VIN is also identified on the internal invoice record, no question those two are connected.

My question, how are you able to tie the Dealer Order record to the W.S.?

Since the scan is cut off on the right edge, I can't match up all of the options from the Order Form to the W.S./internal invoice records.

But even if those are a match, on the Dealer Order the box "Customer or Tag For" is noted as Rammon Dickson. The Dealer Order is also checked to show the order was "pre-sold" versus for Dealer Stock.

The internal invoice shows the car was sold to Mary J. Edwards.

I'm guessing the files were such that you are certain all this paperwork was for the same car. Just wondering if you know why the order identifies a different customer name than the internal invoice?

I see that it was hand written on the order "Est. Build Date - 4 8 69". I wonder if the estimate was based on input from the Zone after the Order was submitted or just a guess by the salesman when he wrote up the Order?

John V,

First, I put the order with the ws and the invoice by the options. I saw the scan cut off the edge after I posted. It has the EXACT options listed on the order as the ws. I have the order with every Judge we sold. This was the lowest option one. It was CR with black int. and white wall tires. That narrowed it down immediately. Plus the date sold was reasonable to order date. And last, as I said the other options were exact. Most of our Judges were special ordered so slightly different options on all. We sold 15 69 Judges (CR, antique gold, matador red, black, mayfair maize, and verdor green), one CR std engine non-judge, and 2 ram air 3 non-Judge cars. Plus many more 69's.

I can only speculate about the name difference. Family member's name for better insurance rates?? Original buyer baked out and car was put in regular stock??

The estimated build date was typically from Pontiac. Eager customers would call/stop by often and we needed info to tell them. We would call zone for this. Later, when orders were done by computer we could access this ourselves. The car would have an extimated build date then change to scheduled status and then change to built/shipped.

[fbirdinconcord]

Originally Posted by 428RA4

Sorry I missed seeing this car during the Bay Area club get together. I was on my way up and had an engine failure.

Yeah, I heard. I was really looking forward to seeing your car as well. At the moment I still have the car so who knows, maybe in the spring we can get together.

Richie

[Kurt S]

Hmm, I'd still say it's a reprint. Not just from the VIN but also cause it was in their files. The original one was on the car. Question is: why reprint it and not use it?

I don't think it would come as an extra copy. That's what the shipper copy was for. Maybe there was an error on it, but the car sold before the new copy arrived??

In 69, the shipping was still based on the distance from Detroit.
Shipping to zone 09 varied from $46.25 to $50.25 for Camaros. A lot cheaper than $65-72 that Hardin was charged.
Hmm, I see the shipping sometimes varied by model. It was $68 to $75 for different Chevy models to another dealer I have docs on (two models were the same, one was cheaper). I never caught that before. I wonder if it varied by base weight or by base price or ....

[John V.]

Kurt, exactly, why reprint it only to file it? And if I'm not mistaken, Hardin had these W.S. records in the file for a lot if not all cars they sold. And they also had the one for the car they took as a Dealer Trade. Sure, they could have also special requested a copy of that record, but that just doesn't seem logical if it just was filed. And the one for the Zone used Bonne with the notes that almost certainly were typed in by the Zone office when sold to Hardin, why would the Zone have that W.S. record if it wasn't standard practice to have a duplicate W.S. with the paperwork from the start? I have to disagree with you, I think it likely was sent out with every Pontiac, not just a reprint by special request. I guess if we could ask an old Pontiac Dealer owner, maybe he would remember.

The error explanation doesn't seem to hold up either, as Ram Air I explains, for the Judge, the Customer Order is a match to the W.S. record. And too many of them to believe they indicate an error, IMO.

In any event, it is way cool that these exist. I know I wish my car had originally been purchased at Hardin!

On the shipping charges, from some very sketchy published stuff, I believe the Shipping Charges were based on Weight. Each model had a base weight. Specific options were counted as added weight. Example, radio, A/C, V8, auto trans, PS. Not everything, just certain specific options. If the car was equipped with these options, the weight increased and the shipping charge adjusted accordingly.

Ram Air I, thanks for the further explanation. Much as I thought. I leaned toward the buyer backing out idea, just wondered if your file had anything else to indicate that. For me, I kinda wondered if the Estimated Build Date was pretty close, it seemed like the delivery date should have been earlier than 4/30/69. That and the name difference suggested the original customer may have backed out and the car sold to someone else a couple weeks after it might have been delivered to Hardin. Just a bit of speculation, not really meaningful. I did try to see if I could locate either name by people search. Did find a Raymond Dickson, 75 y.o. in Maysville, KY. Thought maybe "Rammon" was just a salesman's phonetic spelling. Maysville not real close to Elizabethtown though. I didn't think it was worth pursuing, not like I own the car today!

[Kurt S]

Originally Posted by John V.

Kurt, exactly, why reprint it only to file it? And if I'm not mistaken, Hardin had these W.S. records in the file for a lot if not all cars they sold.

These extra WS's are common for Pontiacs? That's pretty major info that I hadn't seen mentioned. Then there goes my theory. Sounds more like it's being used as a shipper copy. Were there also shipper copies (look just like a WS but on plain paper) in the Hardin dealer paperwork? I saw a 67 Firebird shipper the other day, so I assume they were used.??
Here it is. Look at these docs!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ponti...item19b91442ad

I hope I'm not infringing with my posts. I'm basing my responses on my experience with Camaro docs - there sure are enough differences that sometimes I don't feel helpful!
In the Chevrolet world, I've never seen an extra WS. Reprints to correct errors, but never extras.

Did this Hardin car get discussed? 69 Firebird 350
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=150405779012

[John V.]

Kurt, I don't know how common, but I'm beginning to think they are, at least for '69. Meaning, a lot of what were thought to be original W.S.'s peeled off the glass are actually these (what I contend must be) shipping record copies of the W.S.'s. BTW, don't ever think you're not being helpful here!

Interesting that you spotted that Dealer Copy Car Shipping Record for the '67 'bird. I was looking thru some '64 stuff the other day & saw that I have a copy of a Dealer Copy Car Shipping Record just like that one but for a '64. What I realized is that what is printed on the Form is exactly what was printed on the Window Sticker (same fonts, layout, and everything). Except, not using the Window Sticker as the base form (so no reverse side sales slogan).

On the '64 CSR, no Dealer Name listed, just the Zone Office (Charlotte, NC). Why? Seems obvious to me, the '64 was a Zone Stock build, whatever dealer retailed it purchased it out of Zone Stock, so the CSR did not reflect a Dealer Name, that wasn't known when it shipped.

The '67 'bird you found identifies a Dealer. Why? Because it was a Dealer Order build.

In both cases, the printing on the original W.S. would have been an exact match to what was printed on the CSR. The '64 without a Dealer Name, the '67 with the Dealer Name.

The '64 copy even has the same strip still attached on the LH side with the "sprocket wheel holes" as was on the Judge W.S. record from Ram Air I. Missing on the '67 record. Aside from the base form difference between the earlier CSR and the WS, looks to have been for the same purpose.

What I think may have happened, this "Car Shipping Record" Form was abandoned sometime after '67 and a 2nd copy of the W.S. form used to serve the same purpose as the "Car Shipping Record" had previously served.

Perhaps RA I can help to confirm this possibility, see if the earlier records have the "CSR" Form instead of the W.S. Form in the file. Might even be able to tell when the change occurred.

I don't think the '69 'bird VIN was discussed yet. RA I, the Seller might wet his pants if you can provide additional file info for that one, VIN 223379N111637.

Here's what I can tell you about the car. It was an early Sept. '69 Norwood build. Hardin purchased it out of Zone Stock on or about 10/10/69, retailed thereafter. If the W.S. record is in the file, it either will not show Hardin's name or will be typed in a different font, such as the Bonne record appeared (I'm guessing blank, but curious). As printed on the Form, it would show "LOUISVILLE KY" as the delivered to dealer at location, since it passed thru the Louisville Zone Stock prior to Hardin purchasing it and 09991 will also appear on the Form. Should show AEE on the Data Plate since it was Norwood built and optioned with the Decor Group. Sales Class A, means Hardin had a credit line thru GMAC so purchased it with GMAC wholesale credit as reflected by the Dealer Invoice.

RA I, really hoping you have the additional paperwork on this one to confirm.

[jlwdvm]

Do you have the pictures of your car on the web somewhere? I am in the process of restoring a 69 that is in pieces (I didn't take it apart) and would like to use your photos as a reference if that is ok. If I copied the pictures from the thread do you think the would be photo quality? Thanks.

[Firedup6975]

OK I think I just wanna throw up now. My dream car, and I can't even find a decent car in my State to use as a donor car to build a TA clone, they are either beyond restoring, or have no Title.

Good luck with it though..... Some people have all the luck!

[fbirdinconcord]

Originally Posted by jlwdvm

Do you have the pictures of your car on the web somewhere? I am in the process of restoring a 69 that is in pieces (I didn't take it apart) and would like to use your photos as a reference if that is ok. If I copied the pictures from the thread do you think the would be photo quality? Thanks.

Here are the links to almost 1,200 pics of the T/A. If there is something I missed please let me know. Post some pictures of your project when you get a chance.

Richie

http://picasaweb.google.com/carbuffs/1969TransAm1#

http://picasaweb.google.com/carbuffs/1969TransAm2#

http://picasaweb.google.com/carbuffs/1969TransAm3#

[fbirdinconcord]

Originally Posted by Firedup6975

OK I think I just wanna throw up now. My dream car, and I can't even find a decent car in my State to use as a donor car to build a TA clone, they are either beyond restoring, or have no Title.

Good luck with it though..... Some people have all the luck!

You need to come out west. While the chances of finding a 69 T/A are slim, there are some great deals on regular Firebirds. Last year I sold a Gold/gold 69 coupe with no engine or trans and a very clean body and original interior with fold down seat for $3,750. The last time I checked the local Craigslist there were a couple of clean 69's for around 5,000. Not show cars but perfect to make a clone. There are quite a few board members around here including myself that I am sure would be willing to look at something for you.

Richie

[jlwdvm]

Thanks for the help. Here's what I'm starting with. A carcass and a lot of boxes. Luckily the metal work is done, underside is painted, front fenders are rust free originals. Came with a repo 400 hood and a rebuilt 455 and a M20, and posi 8.5 rear. I think I bought it right, it had been on the market for several months and the seller was motivated. Hope to do all the work myself, including paint and body.

[fbirdinconcord]

Originally Posted by jlwdvm

Thanks for the help. Here's what I'm starting with. A carcass and a lot of boxes. Luckily the metal work is done, underside is painted, front fenders are rust free originals. Came with a repo 400 hood and a rebuilt 455 and a M20, and posi 8.5 rear. I think I bought it right, it had been on the market for several months and the seller was motivated. Hope to do all the work myself, including paint and body.

Looks like you have a great start there.

Do you have the PHS for the car. Its neat to see how they were optioned and where they were sold.

Here is an old thread I posted about a similar stalled project about 2 miles from me. I haven't talked to the owner since I posted that but I think I will check in with him this week.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=596563

[bonneville Joe]

I'm assuming this isn't the car on ebay now? There is one on there now with basically the exact same story and it's in CA.

[fbirdinconcord]

Originally Posted by bonneville Joe

I'm assuming this isn't the car on ebay now? There is one on there now with basically the exact same story and it's in CA.

That is my car.

[1969transam]

I am the proud new owner of this rare car. The search for the right 69 t/a took awhile. This car will be driven and possibly restored in the future. For now the original engine will be going to Butler to rebuild and will be back in the car by spring. This is my first post on this site ,but I am sure there will be many more. Thanks John

[turbo69bird]

congrats on the car.