[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

1. I have a rather small dick, thank you.

2. You're rather easily pissed off.

3. Your point? Besides the one on top of your head, that is.

[misterp266]

6390 posts Steve, is that a record?

Car looks awesome!

Talked to Jess Tyree @ Bowling Green. He said only ONE real SD Tempest wagon was made. hmmmmm.

Personally I don't care one way or the other but if it's not an original then own up to it. I don't think anyone will argue that it's an awesome car and if it's ever for sale, the buyer had better do <span class="ev_code_RED">LOTS</span> of homework!

Not to change the subject but, when will I get to see your fueler run? MM '06?

[Brian Baker]

Photshop could tell if the document had been computer altered in any way, by turning the image into a negative and then adding/subtracting shading.

It looks legit' to me. That type of printer paper hasn't been used in more than 20 years.

So Union Park Pontiac retook posession of the car in July 1964. There's no lien listed because, obviously, the dealership did not finance it to retake posession. How they got reposession of it is moot. Am I seeing things or does it look like someone handwrote "DeNick" at the top of that title, just to the left of "P98"? Interesting.

Looks to me like sometime between then and August 1964, Union Park transferred the title to Doug Willey Pontiac in Alabama and they sold the car to Mr. Hage? Hoge? It wouldn't seem unusual, at least not by today's standards, for one car dealer that was having trouble moving a used car off a lot, to transfer it to another dealer in another area where sales of that particular model car might be hotter. Practices were likely no different back then.

Question now is, how/when did ownership get from Mr. Hage/Hoge to Mr. Blair? What year did Bill buy the car again?

And what of Mr. Blair purchasing a NOS aluminum front clip from Fulper? Is that story "Bravo Sierra" or did someone after it was sold from Willey Pontiac smash the front end again? And if so, how is it that THAT particular front end was also aluminum? Why (or better yet, HOW) would Union Park replace the damaged sheetmetal from when DeNick owned it with aluminum when steel was easier to be had?

Still more unanswered questions.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by misterp266:
6390 posts Steve, is that a record?

Car looks awesome!

Talked to Jess Tyree @ Bowling Green. He said only ONE real SD Tempest wagon was made. hmmmmm.

Personally I don't care one way or the other but if it's not an original then own up to it. I don't think anyone will argue that it's an awesome car and if it's ever for sale, the buyer had better do <span class="ev_code_RED">LOTS</span> of homework!

Not to change the subject but, when will I get to see your fueler run? MM '06? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If what Jess said is true, what he meant was the others were converted at the dealership. I think this has already been debunked, there were 6 built at the factory.

[tom s]

Tyree STILL tells everyone that will listen that my 63 Lemans he raced in 63-64 was a factory mule!A legend in his own mind!I have pictures of the "mule" with cal. blk plates on a car that was deleivered NEW to me.I was in his shop when the M/T 63 SD coupes were deleivered.Tom

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

I have pictures of the same "mule" car in some old guy's mother's driveway.

It was green, I think.



misterp:

Those are 'views', not 'posts.'


By the way:

I'm still awaiting answers to MY questions, Baker.

Get in line.

[misterp266]

views, posts, whatever.....should we argue that too?

I was very impressed with the car, and then amazed at how much extra time people have on thier hands to argue about it.

So, about your car Steve. I'm still waiting for an answer to MY question.

I know....I'm a new guy here. I admit I don't know all the history on the SD cars but I thought that, like me, most racers appreciate a bad ass Pontiac whether it's original or not. Do we all agree that the car came out awesome, real or not?

Done posting here, hope you guys get it all figured out.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Steve who?

[misterp266]

I guess I just really don't know who you are BNP. sorry...

Any info on a SD Tempest wagon from Massachusetts? (not originally) Tom Connelly Pontiac raced it in the mid sixties and then it dissapeared after being vandalized. I believe it has resurfaced recently but I have no details.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

That car came out of Rhode Island, not Massachusettes.

It was originally owned by Luigi Gaccione.

[misterp266]

The car was raced and owned by Tom Connelly Pontiac in Norwood, Massachusetts.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

AFTER Luigi Gaccione owned it.

And before Connelly bought it from Luigi, Luigi was in partnership with a Chinese guy, Rink A. Zink.

[Tom Vaught]

Good Work, Don,

I have a copy of the same document on my computer somewhere, If I can get to it in the near
future. No, the document is not a "Photoshop creation"

The car is the original car, now the question (and fun) is trying to figure out where Hippo
fits into the mix.

At least we have gone from the car being a fake to trying to establish an accurate Ownership
Line for the vehicle.

Trading vehicles between dealers is and always has been an acceptable practice. I delivered
two rare cars to other dealers from my uncle's dealership.

A slightly used 396 (375 hp) Camero with auto (convertible) to a dealer in the Detroit, Mi. area and a 67 W-30 Ram Air (4 BBL) Olds 442 race car to a dealer in Lansing, Mi.

Tom V.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Vaught:

Trading vehicles between dealers is and always has been an acceptable practice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's not what happened here. I was told that Bill Blair bought the car from Union Park and took it back to Alabama.

My questions above remain unanswered.

[Tom Vaught]

"But that's not what happened here. I was told that Bill Blair bought the car from Union Park and took it back to Alabama."

Bill is an old dude like me. You really think that he remembers EXACTLY something that happened 42 years ago? Come on Sonny, even you aren't that naive. Crap! I can't remember what I had for lunch two days ago, most of the time. I can rattle off the Ram Air 4 cam part number (9794041) but don't ask me where and when I first memorized it.

"I was told" I was told that there was a "Tooth Fairy" and "Santa Claus" too! "I was told"
doesn't mean squat typically.

You need to add more information like. "On July 15, 1996 at 2:30pm I spoke with Ben Dover
and he said the following as related to our discussion of the 1963 Pontiac SD Tempest Wagon.
Dates, Times, Items discussed, Related Information, New Contacts, etc.

Even "Tex, the Investigator" knows how to keep proper communications records. LOL!

Tom V.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Vaught:

Bill is an old dude like me. You really think that he remembers EXACTLY something that happened 42 years ago? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Pops Schlocky says he does.

Ask him.

By the way:

My questions above still remain unanswered.

[Don Keefe]

Did anyone happen to notice that George Hoge's address was the same as Doug Willey Pontiac's? Could it be that he was the salesman there who transferred it to Bill Blair from Union Park?


I fail to see how this is relevant. We have the car "legitimized." You wanted notarized proof that was the car- you have it (as if it wasn't legit in the first place).

We also have the paper trail to Alabama. It is not at all a stretch to say that Blair got the car from Union Park Pontiac. He could easily have run the paperwork through on Doug Willey Pontiac's dealer license so he could get it as wholesale piece, maybe for say, $2,300?

Just because the story doesn't fit exactly with your third-hand account of the situation doesn't make it wrong.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Second-hand. And it doesn't make YOUR story right.

And my questions above still haven't been addressed.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blown Nitro Pontiac:
The pretty little bow ain't tied up yet.

Where's the original PA title?

Why would Union Park put the title in their name?

It costs more money to do so, and it puts another owner on it.

On a car that was originally $3800 new, it's now a "C" title to whomever bought it used. Now, with the Alabammy title, it's a "D" title. Since, by '64, this car has now bounced through 3 states, it remains an "A" title in the last state to record it?

There seems to be no plausible reason for this, but it's possible. Even probable.

If the SD program was discontinued in February of '63, would Union Park have installed another SD engine by August of '64? Or a 326? Was aluminum sheetmetal still available new by August of '64?

The car was sold new for $3800 (or thereabouts), but was resold as a year old car in '64, for $2300?

So, according to Bill Blair's story, GMAC must have lost $1500 on this car (as DeNick likely owed more on it than he paid), not to mention the cost of a new motor (SD or otherwise) and new sheetmetal, and repo/storage fees? Who paid the difference?

What did Union Park Pontiac pay for it? $100? Dealers didn't buy cars for resale back then unless they could make good money on them.

Did they buy it back at auction? If not, did GMAC just call Union Park and say "we'd like you to have this car, because we like you?"

What?

This is why who DeNick financed the car from is HUGELY relevant. DeNick wasn't known at the time as being a particularly good credit risk. His '62 Plymouth, for example, was repossessed prior to this debacle. GMAC was a little more choosey about their credit risks back then than was Chrysler Credit.

Interesting.

If that car was worth ANYTHING, doesn't the reasonable person think that Harold Ramsey would have bought it back (for next to nothing)and either raced it or would have sold it and made money? The fact that he did neither suggests it was worthless. Yet, a guy from Alabama supposedly drives a day up and day back down, to buy the car for $2300?



Don:

Tell me about the Fels Naptha Soap deal.

Don:

A week ago, your research indicated A DIFFERENT white wagon with blue bucket seats and "Instant" lettered on the side was the suspected car on Passyunk Avenue. Now, a week later, your "newly discovered" information tells you otherwise? Tell me more about this new information.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


These ones.

[Don Keefe]

First off, I never said anything about "A DIFFERENT white wagon with blue bucket seats and "Instant" lettered on the side was the suspected car on Passyunk Avenue." You added the extra detail. I only mentioned that there MAY have been another white '63 Tempest wagon and I only said that was a theory that was based on the fact that I could find nothing tangible to suggest the Union Park Pontiac was ever there.

It's certainly possible that it was there, but only as a temporary parking place after being reposessed, nothing more.

As far as trying to find the "original" PA title, whether they used a 421 SD engine or an aluminum fender or anything else- you're on your own. I proved that the car in question was the Union Park Wagon and that was my only intent- other than defending the reputation of a trusted friend who cannot defend himself any longer.

As far as I'm concerned, the rest is not relevant to its authenticiity. The car in Jean Williams' museum is the Union Park Wagon. It came from Union Park Pontiac, it was gone for a while and then it came back there a year or so later before going to Bill Blair. If you want to go chasing windmills, have at it. I'm sure that it will be an interesting story if and when you figure it all out.

I've already spent too much time on this deal as it is, as I am knee-deep in deadlines and as mentioned, I provided notarized proof of its legitimacy. Betcha didn't see that one coming!