[thews]

2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP 2DR Coupe with 24K miles in Michigan at $8K reserve not met. They look so different, kinda like a Jaguar XKE convertible vs. hardtop different. I love these cars.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/32582664941...Bk9SR6y31-nZYg

[muscle_collector]

what do you mean manual trans ra3 heads. i have owned countless 70 trans ams auto and 4 speed and every single one of the ra3 cars with the original engine had 12 heads. i also have owned numerous 70 ra3 judges and every one of
them with original engines had 12 heads regardless of it being auto or 4 speed.

Originally Posted by thews

For every restomod you see that is asking $80K, consider you could buy this instead. 70 Trans AM in Ohio at $77K BIN OBO. Looks like #12 manual trans RA III heads, but those are actually better than the #13's. What a beautiful car.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/22578974855...Bk9SR6y31-nZYg

[thews]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

what do you mean manual trans ra3 heads. i have owned countless 70 trans ams auto and 4 speed and every single one of the ra3 cars with the original engine had 12 heads. i also have owned numerous 70 ra3 judges and every one of
them with original engines had 12 heads regardless of it being auto or 4 speed.

My bad if I'm wrong. When I used to comb junkyards, the stick cars always had #12 heads and the automatics had #13. I had a 69 Firebird 400 stick car with #62 heads (instead of #48), so I know this isn't always true. It sort of is for GTO's, because almost all GTO automatics had #13 heads.

[north]

The 69 situation was that on the GTO the base engine and all RA (3) engines used 48 heads while automatic base engines used 62 heads. However on the firebirds the 48 heads were only used on manual trans ram air-HO engines while all regular 400’s and RA-HO engines with automatic used 62 heads.

Likely this had something to do with cam usage with 48 heads going with the 068 cam and 62 heads going with the 067 cam. However this wasn’t exactly accurate either so who knows.

I suspect the 13 vs 12 head thing in 70 followed the same pattern but unlike 69, in 70 the 400 engines in RA’s and Formulas were the same as those in GTO’s

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

In the 70-73 Bird section there is a current thread about 12 & 13 heads on 70 YZ engines .
The mention is of 13 heads being on some FBody Ram3 Auto with AC
As in AC being the determining factor.


I've never seen anything but 12's on matching number YZ engines in the past almost 40 years.
13's on YS and XH engines.

If the sparodic sightings are real , would have to call them factory fkk ups.

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by north

The 69 situation was that on the GTO the base engine and all RA (3) engines used 48 heads while automatic base engines used 62 heads. However on the firebirds the 48 heads were only used on manual trans ram air-HO engines while all regular 400’s and RA-HO engines with automatic used 62 heads.

Likely this had something to do with cam usage with 48 heads going with the 068 cam and 62 heads going with the 067 cam. However this wasn’t exactly accurate either so who knows.

I suspect the 13 vs 12 head thing in 70 followed the same pattern but unlike 69, in 70 the 400 engines in RA’s and Formulas were the same as those in GTO’s

John, I spoke to you about my 69 T/A automatic about 5 years ago. Do you think, EX.69 Trans Am Auto, with 62 heads would also have an 067 cam? I find it interesting that if you were to sell a set of 62 heads but called them RA3 heads, people would freak out but being 69 T/A's all came with the base RA3 engine (unless RA4 selected) , that would seem accurate.

[north]

Unlike the GTO applications the 69 Firebird 400 HO-RA used the 067 cam (with 62 heads) with automatic transmissions and the 068 cam with 48 heads for manual transmissions. The basic Firebird 400 used the 067 cam and 62 heads for all transmission choices.

In comparison the 69 GTO used the 068 cam and 48 heads on its base 400 with manual transmissions and used 48 heads and the 068 cam on all RA (3) engines (except early manual transmission engines that had the high duration 744 cam).

This difference seems to reflect the fact that Pontiac saw the GTO as a “muscle car” but saw the Firebird 400 as more of a “sporty car”.

You see this in axle ratios and suspension too: while the basic 69 GTO used 3.55 gears with both manual and automatic applications (and 3.23 with AC) the basic 69 Firebird 400 used a 3.08 with automatic and 3.36 with manual and AC automatics used 2.73’s (I can’t find record of the standard axle for a 400 manual trans with AC).

Similarly while the 350 HO and 400HO used a heavier rate suspension the basic 400 used the standard v8 suspension.

[necdb3]

John, That confirms my thoughts also, The 067 cam sounds different than an 068 cam. Very noticeable at idle. The 69 I have sounds like an 067 cam. The previous owner put 48 heads on it during a "restoration" because people "in the know" told him All 69 T/A's had 48 heads if a Ram III. I thought that to be false 5 years ago at time of purchase. Fortunately, when I asked about the wrong heads on the car, he showed me the heads they took off, which were 62's.

[kingbuzzo]

[QUOTE=thews;6456554]72 Lemans GTO Judge clone at NR $9K in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. 4-speed car and interior is nice. 7K3 heads, so not a dog. I like the fact the hood doesn't have fake Ram Air stickers on it.

Canadian funny money...that's a steal

[kingbuzzo]

[QUOTE=thews;6456560]How cool is this. 69 Pontiac (yes, Pontiac, from our brothers up north) Beaumont SD convertible 396 at $50K BIN in Pennsylvania. Claims to be one of 264 SD-L78 (SD stands for Sports Deluxe... according to the ad). That is one bad ass cool car. Hard to believe we used to think those Mr. Gasket foot gas pedals were cool.

wow drop-top too...if I was yankee this would definitely steal the show for the oddball award...lol

[kingbuzzo]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Another view of the Hazard


Edit :
Somewhere on here years back , I think that was actually substantiated .
I was in on the discussion , but pretty sure it was someone else who dug up the info.

I never seen that before...that's wild

[thews]

67 Firebird convertible 4-speed restomod in Florida at $9K NR.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13474474608...Bk9SR4LS0rraYg

[thews]

67 GTO 4-speed in Florida at $15K NR.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18609678417...Bk9SR4LS0rraYg

[thews]

Originally Posted by kingbuzzo

I never seen that before...that's wild

Is the problem the bird decal obstructs the RV mirror?

[thews]

Originally Posted by necdb3

John, That confirms my thoughts also, The 067 cam sounds different than an 068 cam. Very noticeable at idle. The 69 I have sounds like an 067 cam. The previous owner put 48 heads on it during a "restoration" because people "in the know" told him All 69 T/A's had 48 heads if a Ram III. I thought that to be false 5 years ago at time of purchase. Fortunately, when I asked about the wrong heads on the car, he showed me the heads they took off, which were 62's.

FWIW all of my input on this thread came from cars that were junked in Riverside CA from about 1987 - 1997. I had a bone stock 69 400 Verdoro green 4 speed car. It had #62 heads and the dates were correct. I wrote a letter to Pete McCarthy, because I had his book and it stated it should have #48's. He wrote back to me and said that he has seen #62's where it should be #48, but it didn't make a difference, because they are both the same 72cc head chamber.

I always read this was also true for the difference between #12's and #13's, in that they are the exact same head. All the 70 GTO's I saw had #13's, and stick cars had #12. I didn't see many early trans Am's that still had the original engine still in it by the time I hit the Pick-A-Part yard. #12's were always considered "Ram Air III" as were the #48's, because they were on stick cars. Grand Prix and the big cars also come with #13's, so they were easy to find, as were the #62's, especially on Grand Prix.

Can anyone out in wisdomville confirm there is an actual difference between the chamber of the #12 vs. #13, and the #48 vs. #62 heads?

[thews]

69 Firebird 400 4 speed at $49K BIN in NJ.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/23522889265...Bk9SR47kqorbYg

[thews]

72 Firebird Formula 455 HO 4-speed in NH at $15.6K NR.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/39490412235...Bk9SR5DkqorbYg

[thews]

67 Firebird 400 frame off $40K BIN Massachusetts.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25623457523...Bk9SR5LkqorbYg

[thews]

And now, something completely different. 67 Firebird with a turbo inline 4 cyl and 6 speed stick that gets 32 MPG at $2K with a reserve in Washington. What a cool car. I love the patina. I don't like the interior, not that it has to be factory, but that would have been my first choice. This isn't a race car, so why the race seats? The rear seat is white, so put some stock white seats in it and it'll look a lot better.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/32582811798...Bk9SR-6_6OLbYg

[thews]

72 GTO 455 HO stick in Texas at $25K NR in Texas. The cowl plate is damaged... I've not seen that before.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/31485681438...Bk9SR_C_6OLbYg