[2manyponchos]

I think we accept both, just a little arguing over which holds more value...splitting hairs in reality cause neither one is the original born with engine.

My friends 69 RAIV Judge went through 2 SR engines under warranty and finally ended up with a 1970 fullsize 455 (all by 1972). He's building the car with a correct WW because that is how it came from the factory.

Your own ride, do what pleases you.

[mike nixon]

Doug's last post is the best advice here. Do what you want with it.

The local dealer didn't use SR engines, for EVERY warranty engine they bought a used one, installed a timing chain, painted it and shoved it in, then pocketed the difference in the money GM paid.On HO engines they swapped the top half and exhaust manifolds. This was per the service mgr who's a friend of mine.

I know for a fact that when I worked at the Buick dealer in town we NEVER stamped a VIN on any engine we installed. Took too long to do on a Flat Rate scale.

An Non original engine is just that IMO.

Mike

[hakansan]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

I think we accept both, just a little arguing over which holds more value...splitting hairs in reality cause neither one is the original born with engine.

My friends 69 RAIV Judge went through 2 SR engines under warranty and finally ended up with a 1970 fullsize 455 (all by 1972). He's building the car with a correct WW because that is how it came from the factory.

Your own ride, do what pleases you.

So wich of the 3 engines Your friend got was most original?
I must ask, what is a correct WW and what is an SR engine?
If Your answer is the WW block why didn´t GM/Pontiac buy there engines at a salvage yard.

I accept an SR engine as original since GM/Pontiac replaced the cars with these engines when the motor from factory where blown under warranty. And my point is that this was not the buyers fault... If GM/Pontiac made engines that blow, why would the car not be original?

Same for GTO -66:
When dealers had ´66 GTO left and the ´67 came dealers mounted hood tachs on them. Are they not original??

Håkan S

[hakansan]

Originally Posted by mike nixon

Doug's last post is the best advice here. Do what you want with it.

The local dealer didn't use SR engines, for EVERY warranty engine they bought a used one, installed a timing chain, painted it and shoved it in, then pocketed the difference in the money GM paid.On HO engines they swapped the top half and exhaust manifolds. This was per the service mgr who's a friend of mine.

I know for a fact that when I worked at the Buick dealer in town we NEVER stamped a VIN on any engine we installed. Took too long to do on a Flat Rate scale.

An Non original engine is just that IMO.

Mike

Prove this!

Håkan S

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by hakansan

I accept an SR engine as original since GM/Pontiac replaced the cars with these engines when the motor from factory where blown under warranty. And my point is that this was not the buyers fault... If GM/Pontiac made engines that blow, why would the car not be original?

Same for GTO -66:
When dealers had ´66 GTO left and the ´67 came dealers mounted hood tachs on them. Are they not original??

Håkan S

An SR engine might be considered "correct" but not original. An SR engine would be a replacement for the original, after all, it stands for Service Replacement.

Any dealer installed option would not be original to the car. Pontiac determined originality, not the dealers. After all, these dealers were, and still are, separately owned businesses--most of them stand alone corporations. They could put aftermarket wheels on a car if they wished.

[West Coast GTO]

My dos centavos;
Having been through the Corvette marque, matching number, Bloomington Gold, NCRS criteria, non-original CE( stands for Chevorlet Exchange or crate exchange, I don't remember which now) and all the amazing amout of Bull**** that goes with engine rebuilders that could exactly match the correct numbers onto a correct build/date block, my conclusion is that Pontiac owners are one step above all that.

Chevrolet did not( or claims they did not) keep records of cars built like the PHS has. That means, for the right amount of money, you CAN have the original engine that was blown up in your GM car even though the actual original engine was scrapped back in the late sixties or early seventies. That includes the original broach markings, vin number and engine code specific to your vehicle. None of that made any diffenence when the time came to sell the car; I still had to disclose the NOM status.

In the end, all that did not keep me younger or richer or even keep me from male pattern baldness but it did allow me to say "Yep, matching numbers"!

So, I will drive my 1970 455( NOM with a 1972-455 block) as hard as I please and fix what may break and enjoy the car all the more for that freedom.

[A Rare 70]

Thanks for all of the responses! I figured that I was going to open a can of worms. Really did not intend for any bad feelings. At this point, I think that I will rebuild and install the SR block. I just have a hard time putting a "WW" block in the car that does not have a matching VIN. In my eyes, this is about as far from "original" as what I have now. I will not be playing the car show game anyways, so this is of little importance to me. Just do not have time for all of the nit picking "experts". Also have no intentions of selling the car, so not worried about that end of the argument either. I know the history of the car and motor, just do not have the Pontiac documentation of what happened. Basically just wanted to know opinions from others in the hobby with like interest.

[Judge273]

Like your thoughts about ownership and love for the RA IV Judge too!

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

I'd personally try to find a correct block for it. Might be difficult. The SR block isn't worth any more than the 428 in it so why spend the money doing that engine up when you can search for a correct block. If it's original and in decent shape leave it that way. I'm assuming you have the PHS for it.

in the ranks of RA IV cars...an SR block on a car with over 40K on it is damn near considered correct! At least it is indicative that the car's history involves a dealership to source parts instead of a boneyard. After all...an SR is more correct than one from another car...correct code or not. JMHO.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by Ron Landis

in the ranks of RA IV cars...an SR block on a car with over 40K on it is damn near considered correct! At least it is indicative that the car's history involves a dealership to source parts instead of a boneyard. After all...an SR is more correct than one from another car...correct code or not. JMHO.

You think a SR block is more correct than a correct coded block that came out of another GTO or Judge? Wow......

[Joebowtie]

I realize that I am late to this disscussion, but here's my opinion.(you ask) If you place this SR block (without documentation) along side an original WW block (with documentation PHS) , which one is more valuable? The WW block, by about 5 times or more. You then install the WW block in a correct car and the car is less valuable than it would be with a generic SR block? I am not buying it. I would chose the factory stamped block everytime. As it was mention before they are both NOM. The car has more value with the WW block. Joe

[MorphWS6]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

You think a SR block is more correct than a correct coded block that came out of another GTO or Judge? Wow......

I think a SR block would be more valuable in the car as well. I'd rather have a SR block than some other block that belongs to another car.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by Joebowtie

I realize that I am late to this disscussion, but here's my opinion.(you ask) If you place this SR block (without documentation) along side an original WW block (with documentation PHS) , which one is more valuable? The WW block, by about 5 times or more. You then install the WW block in a correct car and the car is less valuable than it would be with a generic SR block? I am not buying it. I would chose the factory stamped block everytime. As it was mention before they are both NOM. The car has more value with the WW block. Joe

This. I can't believe anyone would thing a generic sr block would be worth more than a real RAIV block that came out of a Judge or GTO.

[The Boss]

Chris, the OP asked our opinions - he didn't ask everyone to agree with yours!

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by mike nixon

Doug's last post is the best advice here. Do what you want with it.

The local dealer didn't use SR engines, for EVERY warranty engine they bought a used one, installed a timing chain, painted it and shoved it in, then pocketed the difference in the money GM paid.On HO engines they swapped the top half and exhaust manifolds. This was per the service mgr who's a friend of mine.

I know for a fact that when I worked at the Buick dealer in town we NEVER stamped a VIN on any engine we installed. Took too long to do on a Flat Rate scale.

An Non original engine is just that IMO.

Mike

The 2 local Pontiac dealers hear did alot of warrenty replacement blocks back then.
ALOT!
There wasnt hardly any good used engines back then.
Only ones where from low milage totals.
Was cheaper and easier to get a "hot" engine or trans.

[Region Warrior]

Weather its out of another car or a SR, still not original #'s.
Shouldnt make a dif on points.

[lintmann]

I'd consider building your SR block and use it....but not so fast! Here's why..... I don't know much about SR blocks but do they have an Engine Unit Number like production blocks? Is it's casting date acceptable for your car's build date? If the casting date is correct AND there is no EUN then I'd really consider having it properly stamped to match the PHS.

If stamping it is out then you could still build and use it but I'd save my money and keep using the 428 and look for a properly coded block.

Now I might get in some of your cross hairs for saying this but....why always the big debate about restamps, SR blocks or correctly coded(with wrong VIN) blocks? NONE of them are original and the only one that has a hope in he!l of being number matching AND looking original is the restamp! More on restamps later

I think the big reason most people are concerned about non original blocks is fraud...right? Making a less valuble car more valuble by replacing, "upgrading" the engine or restamping it to make a car something it never was. This can be a big deal with some brands where factory docs no longer exist like with the Corvette crowd but HELLOOO WE have PHS! We all know it's as simple as submitting your VIN and what you get back is what you have, proof right from the horse's mouth so to speak.

So again, what's the big deal? If the block is not original to the car it doesn't matter what it is, it's still wrong. Doesn't matter if some GM dealer installed a SR block under warranty or "Joe Blow" found a correct one a few VIN numbers off and installed it. The first one may have GM docs showing that it was dealer installed under waranty but the "Joe Blow" one will have available to him, the PHS so BOTH have indisputable docs to show that the car is not being misrepresented.

For what it's worth I'd take the correctly coded "Joe Blow" block(with PHS) any day over an SR block because it at least LOOKS original and you can't tell if it's correct or not unless you go looking for the VIN or date codes.

Now about restamps..... Again, we all know about PHS so what really is the big deal about restamps? Yes they are not original but rarely are all the body panels or paint, or many of the interior or other mechanical items. No one makes a big deal about them so why such a big deal about the block? The WHOLE intent for restoring is to bring an object back as close as possible to it's original state. You can take the front fenders from a 4 dr and put it on a Judge and and no one cares. You strip the old parts, paint them and install the Judge decals and no one can tell that those fenders were from a 4 dr so as far a parts go, really what is the difference?

[mrrat1]

Soooooo a block with another cars vin is better than having a SR block in your dads vette. 6 down the line or next it will never be orig! Can it even get gold at Bloominton? Just dumbs down the gold if it can IMHO! Just hope it wasn't from a stolen car huh. I'd rather have the SR block hands down.........Dave K.

[roundportponchos]

I have a 1 of 88, WW 70 TA block, also a SR(72 date). I drove to Oklahoma to pick up the WW from a friend who gave it to me. Being that it is so rare, & came out of a TA, we plan to use it.
Any thought from board on which to use?

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

This. I can't believe anyone would thing a generic sr block would be worth more than a real RAIV block that came out of a Judge or GTO.

If you took your car to a dealer and got it repaired [UNDER WARRANTY]...would you be happier that it came back with a junkyard motor [WW with someone else's VIN] or one off the GM shelf that the book calls for? No brainer...to me. So...what am I missing? Any SR block with four bolt mains is NOT all that "generic"...especially since it is relatively well-known that they were sold as short blocks with correct goodies stuffed inside. Sorry...I'd want my car done correctly...not the way some shadetree mechanic might do it...but that's just me. In this case...the SR is simply a NEW WW...whether or not the dealer chose to stamp it. If you'd rather have the "swap meet" motor...I'm sure there are folks out there looking for someone like yourself to sell their "restored" RA car to. Plain and simple...SR is the only one considered legit...by GM standards. Can't say about anyone elses. An SR renders ANY car legit....a stamped block only works on one...the one it came in. As I stated before...most any RA IV car with over 40k on the clock is almost expected to have had the motor replaced with a "Service Replacement" unit. Don't take my word for it. Check with anyone else having over twenty years of dealings with these cars. Ron