[Engine-Ear]

Frustrating...reminds me of what some have called "Specsmanship", or the interpretation and/or manipulation of numbers for favorable specs.

[AG]

For every molecule of ZDDP there is one atom of Zn and two atoms of P. But Zn has a molecular weight of 65 and P is about 31 so the PPM ratio of Zn to P will be slightly higher (65/62). There is no free Zn or P added to ZDDP, both are covalently bonded in the ZDDP molecule. The PPM of Zn and P in an oil formulation is determined by how much ZDDP is added to the oil.

[highrisk]

Originally Posted by AG

For every molecule of ZDDP there is one atom of Zn and two atoms of P. But Zn has a molecular weight of 65 and P is about 31 so the PPM ratio of Zn to P will be slightly higher (65/62). There is no free Zn or P added to ZDDP, both are covalently bonded in the ZDDP molecule. The PPM of Zn and P in an oil formulation is determined by how much ZDDP is added to the oil.

So what you are saying is the companies are probably just reporting the amount of Zinc and Phosphorous that are within the ZDDP instead of reporting the amount of ZDDP. That makes me a little more confident in their numbers.
Thanks for stepping in and helping to clear this up for me.
Dale

[AG]

Companies are reporting the amount of Zn or P in units of PPM (parts per million) contained in their oil formulation which is determined by the amount of ZDDP added to the oil. Usually companies will add 2-12% by weight of ZDDP into the oil. Depending on the molecular weight of the ZDDP, it will contain around 11% Zn and 10% P. So if you have 10 lb of ZDDP, it contains around 1.1 lb Zn and 1 lb P. 1% = 10,000 PPM so you don't need a lot of ZDDP to get 1300 PPM of Zn or P content in oil.

[Engine-Ear]

Thanks, for the chemical input, Silver (AG).

[78w72]

im no chemist or "tribologist" however engine-ear is correct in saying that zddp levels are not equal to what a company or msds sheet says the zinc & phosphorous levels are. there is a recent thread on here somewhere about zddp. basicallly saying too much does more harm than good. not meaning harm to catalytic converters, harm as in too much can cause more wear or deposits or other issues within the engine.

the current api M & N regulations are at 800 ppm of zddp. that number has been proven to be sufficient for stock flat tappet cams & even some mild cams. the problem is when guys use high lift, faster lobe ramp profiles & stronger spring pressures the 800 ppm may not be enough... especially on break in. i have read about & researched this issue ALOT since the onset of the drop in zddp numbers that started in the early 2000's. i have called & talked to a few oil companies just as the OP did. best info & help i got was from valvoline, they explained that 800ppm was sufficient for all factory flat tappet cams, it is only the "race" cams that can cause a problem.

there are plenty of stock cars on the road today with HFT cams that are running perfectly fine with current oils. my 97 jeep 4.0 has 170,000 miles & has always ran whatever oil i came across with api M grade... it runs like a champ & even does pretty heavy towing. so the guys that are buying the zddp supplements for their stock-ish cars with plenty of miles on them are most likely wasting their money. the cam & lifters would be fine with whats in normal oil. for the guys with above stock cams & springs then somewhere around 1200-1400 is ideal, those levels are still in moden heavy duty oils marketed for diesel engines, liek rotella-t & chevron delo-400 etc. usually 15/40 & some 10w30. BTW rotella-t is one of the lower ones today, diesel oils zddp have been reduced as well as of 2007 but still higher than car oils.

if anyone has any other questions & want answers from real oil guys, not just assumptions & what other people have read, check out the best oil related site there is, bob is the oil guy. there are hundreds of threads & actual tests done on oils to determine the numbers. only way to verify zddp or other chemicals in oils is by doing an oil analysis that some companies offer.

to reiterate, zinc & phos #'s do not equal actual zddp #'s. & adding a bunch of zddp additive is not always better. if you have a mostly stock size cam current oils are fine, diesel oils are extra insurance without spending $10+ for 8oz of "zddp" which in itself the numbers are unknown. if you have a bigger cam & springs use a better oil like brad penn, kendall, or valvoline vr-1.... or save some cash & get a good diesel oil like delo-400 or believe it or not walmarts supertech diesel oil has one of the highest zddp levels of those oils.

everything you will ever want to know about oil or engine additives.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

[AG]

Bob the oil guy's site is a great resource and has some data on total Zn and P levels in some of the aftermarket ZDDP additives from which you can calculate how much you need to add to 6 qt of oil to bring up the Zn and P content to the above mentioned 1200-1400 PPM which is what I do. Remember to check how much is in the oil you use and then determine how much additive you need to bring the levels up to 1200-1400 PPM. I use the Crane ZDDP additive in my HFT cam car and change my oil once a year regardless of the mileage I put on it. I'll have to check but I think I put in 4 oz of it since it has high levels of Zn and P.

[78w72]

very true, BITOG members have been sending samples of the zddp additives in for analysis lately so they know the numbers. before the additives hit the market like they have recently, one of the cheapest easiest ways to get extra zddp was from good ol STP oil treatment. besides a huge viscosity number that colder climate cars wont like, its actually got some decent amounts of zddp.. & only a couple bucks a bottle. i dont use it unless its a beater car with a lifter tap or something.

my oil of choice without getting into expensive brands & additives is chevron delo 400 or other HDEO (diesel oil) my current stroker engine wont need any of that though... im using a roller cam.

[Greg Reid]

Good, informative thread.

[AG]

I did some checking and it looks like the Lucas additive is around 40,000 PPM Zn for a 16 oz bottle. If the base oil has 600 PPM, then it would take about 4 oz of the Lucas additive in 6 qt to bring the Zn level up to 1300 PPM.

[lust4speed]

I would be nervous going under 1,600 PPM which has been the general consensus of articles I have read over the last year or so. I don't put much faith in a manufacturer's claim of what's needed if they just happen to produce an oil containing 1,200 PPM. It's sort of a "oh yeah, uh, let's see, our oil contains 1,200 PPM and it will work just fine."

I guess the other thing to consider is stock duration and lift cams will not have the need for as high of ZDDP as a radical cam simply because contact pressures will be considerably less.

Here's the final thought. If the community has experienced numerous catastrophic failures at 800 PPM, we know that is not enough ZDDP. To each his own, but I'll stick with the minimum 1,600 PPM total.

[highrisk]

All I can say is, "WAY TO GO GOVERNMENT!!!!!!" As always our idiots that lead this country take something that used to be very simple and turn it into a nightmare. Let's see, what would have been a better answer, we still have cars without converters that still use HFT Cams that need the ZDDP at higher levels as well as the newer cars that need less, so let's leave the old oil alone so it is there for those that need it and just introduce a new oil designed for the newer cars. Then the owner can choose the oil he needs without having to go to engineer school.

Silly me, too simple and makes too much since for this government to figure out!!!!

So has anyone tried the newer entries into the market that claim they are complete, Lucas, Champion, Comp Cams, and Amsoil? I run Amsoil Synthetic Motorcycle Oil in my Harley and am very satisfied with their product.

Dale

[Engine-Ear]

I am using the Classic Car Motor Oil.

To each his own, but I like supporting small business and one with its roots in the old car hobby.

[highrisk]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

I am using the Classic Car Motor Oil.

To each his own, but I like supporting small business and one with its roots in the old car hobby.

Are you referring to the Champion Classic Oil?
Dale

[pugslyx234]

Does anyone remember Wynns oil treatment?

[highrisk]

I was surfing thru different forums and found this website on the Charger Forum. It seems they custom blend their oil to your specific motor and driving conditions. They get good reviews from the Charger Forum. Has anyone heard of them or used them? Sounds expensive though.
Dale

http://www.bndautomotive.com/page/page/929427.htm

[Engine-Ear]

Originally Posted by highrisk

Are you referring to the Champion Classic Oil?
Dale

not sure, Dale ... this IS the stuff:
http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/

[GRX]

Great info. 5-star thread rating achieved.

[highrisk]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

not sure, Dale ... this IS the stuff:
http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/

No that is not the one made by Champion, but I have seen their website. Thank you for reminding me of them, I had forgotten they were out there.

Just went to the website, thanks for the link. It is $6.20/qt shipped when you buy 12 and has 1600 Zinc. I will definitely add it to my list. I read their articles and I am very impressed with the oil. I like the idea that they use the same rust and corrosion inhibitors as the military to protect the engine during periods of storage.

Dale

[The Champ]

My only problem with these "specialty" oils is the fact that you can't buy them at most stores.

I've been following the thread and I have to admit that the classic car motor oil is at least priced low enough (with shipping) to make it relatively reasonable.

Because classic doesn't specify, I can only assume it's conventional oil, not a synthetic blend or full synthetic.

I've been running Mob1 0W40 in my wifes '72 Camaro for the last several years (1000 ppm P and 1100 ppm Z) with good results. Prior to that it got Mob1 10W30 (800 ppm P and 900 ppm Z) - that was before I learned of the potential problems of low ZDDP levels - but I never did have any issues with the 10W30.

My new 461 for the GTO should be installed next month. After breakin I've been considering Mob1 15W50 for that (1200 ppm P and 1300 ppm Z).

Link to Mob1 specs: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

I can buy either one of these any day of the week locally for about $6.50 per quart. On sale, $5.79 - 5.99 per quart. I guess I like the idea of using a full synthetic if the costs are the same.

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts.