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#21
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#22
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Might have something to do with the cams I use? GT. |
#23
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were the eheads the later heart-shaped chambers? If so, that was a smoking deal.
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears ‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded) '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
#24
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Per Wallace Racing Calculator w. 4.30 gasket bore dia.: Your displacement is 464.62 CID The Compression Ratio is: 11.77 No way that should work on pump gas even with aluminum heads.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#25
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I'd go USA made vs offshore.
Was just on the phone with a customer yesterday who was going back thru his SBC build where he used Speedmaster heads on it about 4 years ago. He logged about 6000 miles and the valve guides are GONE. He said otherwise it ran fine for most of that time until they got so loose it started missing and sucking down a lot of oil.......
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#26
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Gee. As a degreed Industrial Engineer with 40 years experience in the logistics industry including controlled climate facilities and process design, construction and project management for Mars Candy Co. and Brown & Williamson Tobacco, I never heard of this. Thank you for enlightening me with your Wikipedia search results. You must be smart.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO Last edited by NeighborsComplaint; 05-21-2020 at 11:28 AM. |
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#27
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Posted.... "Its what the market will bear, the manufacture needs the volume enabled by that price point to justify the costs associated with maintaining the product line"
I just posted with a related tid bit for interest. Nothing more, nothing else. .
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#28
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I have the old style 87 cc e-heads on a 505, 10:1 for street use. Runs cool, runs hard, no complaints.
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#29
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You said the pricing was a matter of supply and demand. Now you're saying it is merely 'market pricing" and supply-side economics? Gee. Even I can understand the larger issue of amortization of developmental and small run costs in establishment of the pricing. So where do cost accounting and economies of scale factor into the laws of supply/demand? They don't. It has nothing to do with Push vs. Pull supply side economics and everything to do with the fundamentals of manufacturing and cost accounting.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#30
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So what is the answer? A vast conspiracy against the Pontiac community? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
#31
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No one asks the manufacturers WHY our brand of heads exceed by sometimes twice the price of other brands that don't sell nearly as many units. If I had a connection to the manufacturers, I'd be asking why that is. If there's a logical explanation, then by all means explain it to us. If there's not, then lower the prices. I want a set of aluminum heads, and have for a long time, I can't justify the price to myself though, and have held off buying any for that reason.
I've said before on PY, I would never expect the Pontiac heads to be as cheap as a SBC, or even a BBC, but c'mon, I doubt that olds and AMC together sell as many units as Pontiac does. Just for grins, how many dyed in the wool, AMC and olds enthusiasts do you know? I know two olds guys, and no AMC guys. I believe that Edelbrock has made their investment back as far as Pontiac is concerned, and they have had one major revision in the Pontiac heads since the inception, heart shaped chambers, which KRE came out with first. Edelbrock updated theirs because the competition on upped them. If not for KRE, would Edelbrock ever have changed the chamber shape? They don't invest much R&D in Pontiac heads. They got on the D port bandwagon because KRE was getting every sale of aluminum D ports, they saw they were losing a ton of sales to KRE. Edelbrock doesn't lead the way very often in firsts for Pontiac, most times some other company makes the investment, does the R&D and opens the market, and Edelbrock follows the lead. I'm not impressed with how Edelbrock has treated the Pontiac community over the last 50 years, maybe I'm off base, but if I am, then someone enlighten me as to why I should think better of them. Big fish in a little pond is the scenario I think of, we should be grateful they have even acknowledged we even exist? Not me, I'll vote with my wallet, so far it's closed, and I'm voting NO. |
#32
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Geezzzz... it wasn't meant nor intended to be a flippant remark toward YOU or regarding the subject itself ! I just found it was interesting the concept goes back over 100 years. Onward thru the fog.
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#33
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And I'm 100% w/ you on the Edel dports. Just not needed by us....the guy in the garage making power. BUT....KRE's competitors needed them..Butler, ect. Butler won't/cannot sell KRE stuff. They compete. Probably main reason why they made heads we already had. - And I use Butler - great guys and great product. I would likely never buy the Ehead dports... I'm glad KRE and Speedmaster, etc are pushing Edelbrock w/ competitive products. |
#34
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I bought Edelbrock 87cc round ports after EXTENSIVE research. I read posts here, GTO forums, Facebook groups and two friends experience. I was very happy with my setup on the engine stand and I am sure I will be even happier with it in the car
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468/TKO600 Ford thru bolt equipped 64 Tempest Custom. Custom Nocturne Blue with black interior. |
#35
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And both sets of them heads had the CNC combustion chambers. Start searching guy's they are out there. GT. |
#36
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Should've posted in different treads.
The heads I mentioned had the CNC chambers. GT |
#37
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Since this is the street section, I think it applies. If you don't want to run tube headers, for all the reasons we already know, you are locked-in to Edelbrock D ports or Kauffman aluminum heads. There are allot of Pontiac customers in that group. Long branch round port manifolds have been unavailable and out of stock for over two years with no sign of coming back to market. So that eliminates all the other aluminum heads including the CV1's and the Ram Air V stuff. So the street guys are really stuck. Round tube headers suck in most true street applications and you can make 600 HP without them. Edelbrock and Kauffman are smart enough to know all this and price their products accordingly. That's why once again, I BEG for iron replacement heads that would cost less than half as much to make and bring the cost of the aluminum heads down because a large vacuum would be filled by them. Chevy, Ford and Mopar all have dozens of aftermarket head options in iron and it has an effect on aluminum head prices as well. My crazy out of the box observations.
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#38
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GT |
#39
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I do not believe I have ever seen a 600hp Pontiac street engine that did not have headers.
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'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'. '67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust |
#40
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Well they are cheaper than 409 heads. I can't imagine Edelbrock will sell enough for R&D costs but I do see a few mpre folks building with them . The good HP #690 and 583 heads go for more than that. Z-11s like "real" RAV prices.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-60815
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
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