[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by mike leech

I was referring to your comment about next friday on the fos comment. Never thought that you weren't dynoing your dads motor. It sure sounds like it will make the number you want. Let me know how it does....

Ahh, yea, prolly not headed to Happy Holbrooks

[Jeff Kinsler]

Originally Posted by mike leech

I was referring to your comment about next friday on the fos comment. Never thought that you weren't dynoing your dads motor. It sure sounds like it will make the number you want. Let me know how it does....

GLTTFMF!!!!!!!!

[mike leech]

to answer toms original questions;
1. I've dyno tested several engines with a few different facilities. KRE, Steve Morris, Scorpion racing engines, and Holbrook.
2. All were paid $500 with the agreement that I would not try to wear their equipment out. Most pulls we made was maybe 14. Most of the time with good operators the tuning process went very fast. Most of the time I was un bolting it by 1130 am with an 8 am first pull. Out of the lot I would give Chris Holbrook and Steve Morris a tie for the best operator. In both situations neither supplied any other service or parts other than maybe the oil and misc parts for the dyno session and still treated me or the owner of the engine great and worked hard to accomodate. Chris Holbrook was the fastest on chasing the tune up and i would recommend him most if a guy needs help tuning. He literally was making a hit every 10 minutes. He was quick to go right to changing air bleeds and timing the first 9 hits were all improvements.
3. I have never played with the lash unless i was way off where i thought I should have been power wise. Never tested synthetic, or played much with spacers(due to hood clearance limitations)Mostly seating the rings and working out the fuel and timing curves. The rest i do in the car.
4. Most of the time the engine leaves the dyno a little leaner than the car wants it. The car generally goes quicker with a little more timing in the middle and a little less on top. Controllers are nice for that. Gear ratio changes don't effect et or mph as much as one would hope. Torque converters make or break a NA combo and need to be considered before poo pooing a combo or dyno.
5. As mentioned... the Wallace Racing calculators are a real close indicator of a cars POTENTIAL if it gets sorted out and works....provided the dyno is close to accurate... in all of the engines I have personally built and tested.

[SLICK1]

Originally Posted by mike leech

to answer toms original questions;
1. I've dyno tested several engines with a few different facilities. KRE, Steve Morris, Scorpion racing engines, and Holbrook.
2. All were paid $500 with the agreement that I would not try to wear their equipment out. Most pulls we made was maybe 14. Most of the time with good operators the tuning process went very fast. Most of the time I was un bolting it by 1130 am with an 8 am first pull. Out of the lot I would give Chris Holbrook and Steve Morris a tie for the best operator. In both situations neither supplied any other service or parts other than maybe the oil and misc parts for the dyno session and still treated me or the owner of the engine great and worked hard to accomodate. Chris Holbrook was the fastest on chasing the tune up and i would recommend him most if a guy needs help tuning. He literally was making a hit every 10 minutes. He was quick to go right to changing air bleeds and timing the first 9 hits were all improvements.
3. I have never played with the lash unless i was way off where i thought I should have been power wise. Never tested synthetic, or played much with spacers(due to hood clearance limitations)Mostly seating the rings and working out the fuel and timing curves. The rest i do in the car.
4. Most of the time the engine leaves the dyno a little leaner than the car wants it. The car generally goes quicker with a little more timing in the middle and a little less on top. Controllers are nice for that. Gear ratio changes don't effect et or mph as much as one would hope. Torque converters make or break a NA combo and need to be considered before poo pooing a combo or dyno.
5. As mentioned... the Wallace Racing calculators are a real close indicator of a cars POTENTIAL if it gets sorted out and works....provided the dyno is close to accurate... in all of the engines I have personally built and tested.

Oh yeah, you touched on an important factor with the Torque Converter, a chassis dyno will tell you right away if you're off the mark, in the ball park, or dead on when it comes to that, and another big problem we found when we attempted to do some pulls on a Buddys BBC Malibu, he simply did'nt have enough fuel volume to make more power,it was at the verge of running out of gas and could not or should I say would not make more power, some still don't understand the difference between PRESSURE & VOLUME!

[Vengeance Race Engines]

Personally, I don't like chassis dynos, and never use them. I use an engine dyno on almost everything I build for many years and many reasons. I leave what it will do in the car for track testing after I get the the rest of the car setup for the new bullet. Funny you mention fuel pressure vs. volume Slick.. I just dynoed a pump gas 383 sbc yesterday. No matter what the BSFC numbers were, it wanted more fuel. Checking the plugs, dead lean. Adding jet, allowed the engine to make more power and torque while letting the engine make power in its intended rpm range..All the while reading 8psi through the run, still lean and wanted fuel..no volume. Just ran out of time to get more from it. Didn't like the fuel system setup on the dyno at all but what can you do. Anytime you have to add more jet than the carb would typically need, there is a problem with volume, or fuel delivery. Regardless what the pressure is. Yes, there is a difference lol.

[Tom Vaught]

Mike, I was at Chris Holbrook's Dyno when Bryan ran his CV-1 Engine with the Tunnel Ram and Pro Systems Dominator Carburetors. Carbs needed Air Bleed corrections there too and at the end of the deal the BSFC numbers were consistent and right where they should have been. We played around with timing for several 1 degree change pulls and got that dialed in quickly.

Lil Jack and others talk about a "Happy Dyno" etc but Holbrook played no games with the Dyno Corrections or the pulls (which I have see happen at other shops). The engine would not make 1000 hp naturally aspirated at 8500 rpm PERIOD with the NOS engine configuration.

Blame it on other stuff but not the dyno or the Operator. Agree, Chris Holbrook was very fast on the calibration changes and very good on the dyno controls for pulling the engine to 8500 rpm every pull.

You and I both know that Mike, as we have been there, the other comments by The Plumber and others are bs and nothing more. You get your moneys worth at Holbrook's shop.

Tom Vaught

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines

Personally, I don't like chassis dynos, and never use them. I use an engine dyno on almost everything I build for many years and many reasons. I leave what it will do in the car for track testing after I get the the rest of the car setup for the new bullet. Funny you mention fuel pressure vs. volume Slick.. I just dynoed a pump gas 383 sbc yesterday. No matter what the BSFC numbers were, it wanted more fuel. Checking the plugs, dead lean. Adding jet, allowed the engine to make more power and torque while letting the engine make power in its intended rpm range..All the while reading 8psi through the run, still lean and wanted fuel..no volume. Just ran out of time to get more from it. Didn't like the fuel system setup on the dyno at all but what can you do. Anytime you have to add more jet than the carb would typically need, there is a problem with volume, or fuel delivery. Regardless what the pressure is. Yes, there is a difference lol.

Sounds like a float drop issue.

[Cliff R]

Fuel delivery is ALWAYS better in a static environment. Under hard accelleration ALL the fuel is trying to run away from the carb and back to the tank or fuel cell, so it's NEVER better than it would be or could be on an engine or chassis dyno. The fuel level in the bowl(s) is never constant or completely level at any point on the run. If you think it is, put a half full can of soda in your lap on your next run, and see where most of it ends up?

The tune can also change at the track from what we find on the dyno as well. At speed the air intake system is exposed to different pressure/velocity of air created by the car speeding down the track, frontal area, "Ram Air" effect from the scoop or off the windshield, etc.

The load the engine sees also varies more on the track, and the engine spends less time pulling thru transistion, so it can race quickly into the more ideal rpm range.

It's also up against the converter on auto trans cars hard in high gear when the drive to the differential is 1 to 1. There is torque multiplication, and gearing involved with 1st gear (and 2nd with 3 speed autos).

You just can't simulate all these things with static testing. That's why we use the engine dyno to nail down a "basic" tune, and do ALL final tuning at the track. We also keep very good records. This allows for tuning before the racing starts, and not pissing around with the car and throwing variables into very valuable time trial runs. Some tracks you will only get 2 at the most, some tracks only one time run prior to eliminations......Cliff

[Tom Vaught]

If the engine has a fuel issue on a chassis rolls or on an engine dyno, it is either in the tune-up of the carb (as Travis mentioned) or with the fuel system used. I have seen several dynos with fuel systems not able to support the HP on the engine on the stand and basically flat-lined.

Marty Palbykin brought his entire fuel system to the dyno and we ran it with all of the proper lines, connections, Fuel Pump, Fuel Cell, etc. If it did not work on the dyno it sure was not going to work on the track.

Steve Morris has a fuel system that has been on numerous videos with engines making in excess of 2400 hp or more. Same deal with his inter-cooler system.
Nice to know that you will not be out of fuel on your 1700 HP engine with a 1600 hp fuel system.

So I agree with Cliff and others that the Engine Dyno serves its purpose IF you are paying attention to the details. The engine will tell you stuff IF YOU ARE WILLING TO LISTEN.

Tom Vaught

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Post up the following information:

1) Have you ever been at a Dyno Shop? Yes, I learned a lot of valuable information that will help me make better decisions later on.

2) How many times and how long was the session? I have been to 5 different dyno sessions. 4 of them was to to help with a n/a engine, under 700hp, and 1 was for my twin turbo deal.

3) What did you pay for the effort? $500- $800 for the n/a engines and $1500 for the twin turbo engine

4) What did you actually think that you learned? For my boosted engine --Mostly, that I didint learn as much as I should have. I made a lot of mistakes that cost me time getting the engine hooked up. I should have had more of the wiring done ahead of time. I thought I asked enough questions in the beginning since he was a new shop for me. Obviously I didnt and that cost me some time. I also learned I needed to bring help that knew my engine. My Dad was mainly a bystander and helped me drive back home after being awake for 34 hours.
We didnt get enough runs on the boosted engine to gain any knowledge of the engine or how the changes affected it. But the biggest lesson I learned is just because you spend $1500 doesnt mean your getting $1500 worth of knowledge. He made a mistake that contributed to having a hurt engine that has cost me $7800 so far to repair. I confirmed those facts with two tuners and one person from FAST by emailing them my files. I dont hold him completely responsible since I had used parts and a older ECU on my engine. But, had he said he wasnt as capable with the older ECU's then I would have went into it with a different mind set. Instead, I went into it with assumming he was the "one" and was dissapointed with his lack of ability on how to make it run on methanol. Had I been running gas, none of these comments would have been the same. I wasnt knowledgable enough to say no, your wrong, please run it the way I suggested right at the beginning when we looked at the files. Allowing my EGT's to get in the high 1200's and well into the 1300deg's hurt my heads. But I did allow the last pull even though the previous pull lost power. He offered a half price deal to help me out, but after talking to FAST i lost my motivation to use them again.

I received much better service from the local dyno operator that did the n/a engines for my friends. They were much easier to get running and tuned. They never allowed the engine

5) Did you use that knowledge when you went to the track or you were just breaking in the engine and checking for leaks? Im still trying to get back to where I started at the end of last year. Next time I'll use a smaller dyno operator and pay someone that can actually help me at the dyno or at the track.

Go for it

Tom Vaught

I honestly believe that in the higher HP engines the dyno is just a tool to get the engine run it. Using a tuner at the track would have cost me less than $7800 and I would have been racing by now.

Who else has used a dyno for a F.I. boosted engine and how much did it cost?

Jeff

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by jdw_poncho

I honestly believe that in the higher HP engines the dyno is just a tool to get the engine run it. Using a tuner at the track would have cost me less than $7800 and I would have been racing by now.

Who else has used a dyno for a F.I. boosted engine and how much did it cost?

Jeff

I use a Dyno(s) for FI Boosted Engines every day and when the cell(s) IS/are NOT running it cost $5,000 for a 8 hour shift (for each cell). Down time is a Killer and the Good Dyno cells are so expensive that we try to keep them running as much as we can.

Tom Vaught

ps "Using a tuner at the track would have cost me less than $7800 and I would have been racing by now."

I have seen "Hired Gun" Tuners that showed up at races and did not really offer anything to the process except to collect their money. I have also see Tuners like Travis Q who know Pontiac Engines, (as well as other engines), know how to tune different fuels, and know how to tune different NA and Boosted combinations quickly get a customers engine close for the tuning on the track that follows.

Tom Vaught

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Mike, I was at Chris Holbrook's Dyno when Bryan ran his CV-1 Engine with the Tunnel Ram and Pro Systems Dominator Carburetors. Carbs needed Air Bleed corrections there too and at the end of the deal the BSFC numbers were consistent and right where they should have been. We played around with timing for several 1 degree change pulls and got that dialed in quickly.

Lil Jack and others talk about a "Happy Dyno" etc but Holbrook played no games with the Dyno Corrections or the pulls (which I have see happen at other shops). The engine would not make 1000 hp naturally aspirated at 8500 rpm PERIOD with the NOS engine configuration.

Blame it on other stuff but not the dyno or the Operator. Agree, Chris Holbrook was very fast on the calibration changes and very good on the dyno controls for pulling the engine to 8500 rpm every pull.

You and I both know that Mike, as we have been there, the other comments by The Plumber and others are bs and nothing more. You get your moneys worth at Holbrook's shop.

Tom Vaught

There was a guy on here that got his motor dynoed at an east coast dyno and the operator didn't know of the BS on this board about Holbrook's dyno. The dyno operator even stated that Holbrook's dyno was happy.

I did hear that the have fixed the problem there recently.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

There was a guy on here that got his motor dynoed at an east coast dyno and the operator didn't know of the BS on this board about Holbrook's dyno. The dyno operator even stated that Holbrook's dyno was happy.

I did hear that the have fixed the problem there recently.

months ago

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

There was a guy on here that got his motor dynoed at an east coast dyno and the operator didn't know of the BS on this board about Holbrook's dyno. The dyno operator even stated that Holbrook's dyno was happy.

I did hear that the have fixed the problem there recently.

Well if someone on the east coast said it then it most certainly must be true then.....right?

[LiL Jack]

True

[Vengeance Race Engines]

I don't feel it was in the carburetor. It's a good piece and have tested with it before., The fuel system on this dyno was way off and seeing the gains we were by adding more jet than the carb actually would need for the size, tells me my gut feeling is right, based on the plug and the gains we were seeing as the BSFC was way off, I went by the plug instead... On a lighter note, with a real system and fuel delivery ie: volume, behind that pressure, once in the car, will run better than what it showed for power. So if the dyno IS on the conservative side, it would mainly be for that reason. I know it was down on power and rpm, knowing where it should have been. Increases in jet was giving me my power and rpm back, but ran out of time for the session to see how far we could go. All good, customer happy as he got the power he asked for, and then some..

[cfmcnc]

We had a new customer show up with a big cube SBC street engine that he said was smoking ,upon dissasembly we found number 6 piston had a hole burnt through right in the middle ,after a complete rebuild we ran this engine on our dyno with wideband o2 on each cylinder,no surprise 6 was at 17.5 afr.all the rest were 12.5-13.5 this engine had a dual carb edelbrock manifold,We richened up the carb barrell that fed 6 and fixed the problem.We dyno EVERY engine we build PERIOD.We have had many other similar experiences.Bill C.

[harry k]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Dam*, that is funny, Harry.
What makes you think that any Rear Wheel Dyno is as ACCURATE as an Engine Dyno the deal?

So what is your idea of the "Real Deal", Harry?

Tom Vaught

Ok Tom
I know this thread isnt about chassis dyno vs engine dyno
that was a quick remark i made
but since you are asking here are living proofs, i am going to make it short as possible cause i know its going to turn into debate as the "WE" few non chassis dyno believers are waiting for Sh_t to start

Ok here i have day in day out is what i see .
1 example to show you a local guy as all of us locals starting from Big Injun Dave,RON and few know this guy what he had and Ken PPR can back this story as well and many more

here is the build 541ci http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hlight=ppr+541




read the story well & look at post#18 ,look at what Ken Crocie stating(another PY VIP like you) http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&postcount=18
"1st. pull made 800HP ! and took us the rest of the day to tweek it 10 more HP!! Good job "ACE"

so this engine went in the car with what they got achieved from the engine dyno
came to my shop
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=dennis+jewell

so it came with engine dyno tuned baseline pull of 605rwhp and made it out my shop with 640rwhp



so you tell me now, whats the real deal ? i leave it up to you
i don't want to debate with you in open forum, you have my phone number ...
if not, its in my link http://www.hkmotorsportsdynoshop.com/

oh btw,when clicking my link above,the red flasher says it all....

[LiL Jack]

Hmm, it lost more through the drivetrain then I thought it would.

[harry k]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

Hmm, it lost more through the drivetrain then I thought it would.

this is what i see on daily basis Jack
and not to say this guy had Kilgores SUPER-LITE 400 trans in it as well ($5500 stock/super stocker unit)