Talking points. - Page 2 - PY Online Forums

red70goat · #21 12-22-2004, 01:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by The Champ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
Pontiac has historically had a distinctive look regardless of whether it was a LeMans or GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That distinctive look was a split grille.

The new GTO has one, just like all the current Pontiacs... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Unfortunately that same look has been transalted into Pontiacs' lower level cars such as the GrandAm, Grand Prix, G6, etc, thereby making the GM Monaro undistinctive in an otherwise uninspiring Pontiac lineup. July 2002, Bill Lovejoy GM VP for Sales, Service and Marketing: " The GTO will represent what every Pontiac can be and will be in the future." Why didn't he just say it will look like everything else Pontiac makes but with more hp? I would have rather he said the new GTO will once again be the trendsetter that made it a legend, not representative of their existing inventory.

Mr_GTO · #22 12-22-2004, 03:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
So everybody needs to be an owner to be informed? I read a dozen or so press releases on it, performance data, etc. Test drove it and found it to be very performance worthy. I thought the quality was substandard for a 30k+ car, the looks very bland and nothing reminiscent of a GTO. I got the information I needed to make a decision not to buy. I'll agree with you GM did a lousy job of advertising it. They were relying on the GTO name to carry them but didn't take into account the negative reaction from a once loyal consumer base. GM further screwed themselves by having people set an "appointmet"

for a test drive. Give me a break! It's a freakin' Monaro in GMC clothing not a Ferrari.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say that but then again, there are plenty of people talking out of their ass when in fact they have no clue about the car. I won't name names right Endura OptionBoy?

Hate to inform you but there is very little similarities between 65 Corvettes and 05 Corvettes and the same with Mustangs. Same can be said for the GTO. They have ALL IMPROVED. Maybe you want to drive a NEW car that drives like the OLD CAR. Is that what you want? Yea, they'll sell a hell of lot of them then.

You just can't get over the concept that the new GTO looks like the new GP and that the old GP looked like the old GTO. Guess what, they do. It can't be denied.

red70goat · #23 12-22-2004, 03:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
So everybody needs to be an owner to be informed? I read a dozen or so press releases on it, performance data, etc. Test drove it and found it to be very performance worthy. I thought the quality was substandard for a 30k+ car, the looks very bland and nothing reminiscent of a GTO. I got the information I needed to make a decision not to buy. I'll agree with you GM did a lousy job of advertising it. They were relying on the GTO name to carry them but didn't take into account the negative reaction from a once loyal consumer base. GM further screwed themselves by having people set an "appointmet"

for a test drive. Give me a break! It's a freakin' Monaro in GMC clothing not a Ferrari.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"I didn't say that..."
>>> I never said you had determined that the only way a person can be properly "informed" about the GM Monaro is that they own one. I was posing it as a question, but your lack of intellect obviously can't decipher between what is a question vs a proclomation of fact.

..."there are plenty of people talking out of their ass...."
>>> Obviously, yourself included. I must have been wrong in agreeing with you that GM did a terrible job in advertising this car.

" Maybe you want to drive a NEW car that drives like the OLD CAR."
>>> Read my post again moron: " Test drove it and found it to be very performance worthy." I don't see anything in there comparing the performance of the GM Monaro to any other car past, present, or future. I guess that means I thought it was a worthy performer by todays standards. Maybe I should write this in big capital letters so that you understand.

" Yea, they'll sell a hell of lot of them then.

"
>>> Yeah, just like now

"You just can't get over the concept that the new GTO looks like the new GP...It can't be denied." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

>>> No argument there. That among other things is why I didn't ( and apparently thousands of others ) didn't buy one.

Mr_GTO · #24 12-22-2004, 03:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
[
"I didn't say that..."
>>> I never said you had determined that the only way a person can be properly "informed" about the GM Monaro is that they own one. I was posing it as a question, but your lack of intellect obviously can't decipher between what is a question vs a proclomation of fact.

..."there are plenty of people talking out of their ass...."
>>> Obviously, yourself included. I must have been wrong in agreeing with you that GM did a terrible job in advertising this car.

" Maybe you want to drive a NEW car that drives like the OLD CAR."
>>> Read my post again moron: " Test drove it and found it to be very performance worthy." I don't see anything in there comparing the performance of the GM Monaro to any other car past, present, or future. I guess that means I thought it was a worthy performer by todays standards. Maybe I should write this in big capital letters so that you understand.

" Yea, they'll sell a hell of lot of them then.

"
>>> Yeah, just like now

"You just can't get over the concept that the new GTO looks like the new GP...It can't be denied." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

>>> No argument there. That among other things is why I didn't ( and apparently thousands of others ) didn't buy one.[/QUOTE]

Trying to read why you attempt to quote is like attempting to read ebonics.

LOL, my lack of intellect? Yea, like the Endura Bumper. They learn about the car from a HUGE ad push. Pontiac didn't do that. Then if people did find out about it and went to look at them, the dealers turned them off.

Sorry, let me know when I post something INCORRECTLY. Right, like the endura bumper comment.

No, when I read "reminicant" I read actually driving it since the GTO of the past looked like the GP of the past. Things are the same today as they were then. Sorry, accept the facts. What part of the CORVETTE of today is remincient of the on of 65 in ANY WAY? Please explain it to all of us.

red70goat · #25 12-22-2004, 06:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
[
"I didn't say that..."
>>> I never said you had determined that the only way a person can be properly "informed" about the GM Monaro is that they own one. I was posing it as a question, but your lack of intellect obviously can't decipher between what is a question vs a proclomation of fact.

..."there are plenty of people talking out of their ass...."
>>> Obviously, yourself included. I must have been wrong in agreeing with you that GM did a terrible job in advertising this car.

" Maybe you want to drive a NEW car that drives like the OLD CAR."
>>> Read my post again moron: " Test drove it and found it to be very performance worthy." I don't see anything in there comparing the performance of the GM Monaro to any other car past, present, or future. I guess that means I thought it was a worthy performer by todays standards. Maybe I should write this in big capital letters so that you understand.

" Yea, they'll sell a hell of lot of them then.

"
>>> Yeah, just like now

"You just can't get over the concept that the new GTO looks like the new GP...It can't be denied." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

>>> No argument there. That among other things is why I didn't ( and apparently thousands of others ) didn't buy one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Trying to read why you attempt to quote is like attempting to read ebonics."

>>> Then perhaps you should finish school and get your GED.

" Pontiac didn't do that. Then if people did find out about it and went to look at them, the dealers turned them off."

>>> My point exactly you idiot. That's what I've been saying this whole time. This car is going to have to be sold on performance alone with "dealer friendly" test drives. They were acting like it was such a priveledge to be test driving a car that they practically had to pay people to look at. Set an "appointment"

for a test drive? Get real Pontiac.

"Sorry, let me know when I post something INCORRECTLY."
>>> I didn't say you posted anything incorrectly, I just said you were an idiot. Nothing incorrect about that.

"...endura bumper comment..."
>>> Ok, if it will you make you happy I was wrong about that in the context if which you took it. Some people claim the 1970 "Jury" was a GTO which I've said in several posts it was not, but a revamped LeMans from a dealer and very, very loosely endorsed by Pontiac: Therefor my comment about 1970 being the last good year of the GTO but only with the Endura Bumper. But you can think what you want. It seems to give you something to occupy your small mind.

" since the GTO of the past looked like the GP of the past."
>>> Which GP of the past? The GP was a much larger car, didn't look anything like a GTO. A LeMans maybe, but certainly not a GP.

"Things are the same today as they were then."
>>> Not even close. There were not very many auto makers then that made anything close to what a Pontiac looked like. Unlike today where there are more manufacturers following the same exterior format...including Pontiac.

"Sorry, accept the facts."
>>> Yup, accept the facts as stated above.

"What part of the CORVETTE of today is remincient of the on of 65 in ANY WAY?"
>>> Both are instantly recognizable as a Corvette and do not resemble every other car in the Chevrolet inventory, unlike the GM Monaro with the Pontiac inventory. Also people still want a Corvette, unlike the GM Monaro.

Please explain it to all of us.[/QUOTE]
>>> That must be your sign off on all your posts. Perhaps you should learn to use a search engine so we wouldn't have to explain everything to you.

The Champ · #26 12-22-2004, 07:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
Exactly. Unfortunately that same look has been transalted into Pontiacs' lower level cars such as the GrandAm, Grand Prix, G6, etc, thereby making the GM Monaro undistinctive in an otherwise uninspiring Pontiac lineup. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read your own response to the split grille issue???

When the GTO was originally introduced in 1964, one of the things that distinquished Pontiacs from all the other GM cars was a split grille.

The GTO had it, the Tempest had it, the Lemans had it, the Bonneville had it, the Grand Prix had it, the Catalina had it, even the Bonneville/Catalina Safari wagons had it.

So what is so surprising that the current crop of Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, and G6 cars have a split grille like the new GTO.

I've read time and time again here that some folks think that the GTO should have had some retro touches. Well, it does - a split grille.

As to an uninspired lineup, who has a better one?

List each Pontiac model and tell me what other big 3 company has a better car in that class, and why.

For once, just admit you don't know what your talking about. You'll feel better.

red70goat · #27 12-22-2004, 08:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by The Champ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
Exactly. Unfortunately that same look has been transalted into Pontiacs' lower level cars such as the GrandAm, Grand Prix, G6, etc, thereby making the GM Monaro undistinctive in an otherwise uninspiring Pontiac lineup. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"....that distinquished Pontiacs from all the other GM cars was a split grille....

So what is so surprising that the current crop of Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, and G6 cars have a split grille like the new GTO.

I've read time and time again here that some folks think that the GTO should have had some retro touches. Well, it does - a split grille."

>>> The split grille is no doubt a Pontiac trademark, but in it's current form it looks nothing like a retro GTO grille or any other retro Pontiac grille. In fact the current grill along with the flush mounted headlights look very similar to any other manufacturer. This was not the case in the Pontiacs of the mid 60's. The split grille, stacked headlights,(65-67), wide stance was unmistakably Pontiac. While I'm not saying a retro grille is neccessarily in order for a new GTO, but certainly something that distinguishes itself apart from the masses is.

"As to an uninspired lineup, who has a better one?"

>>> Nobody, they all follow in lockstep with the same design tread. Credit given to Ford for the 05 Mustang blending retro with some smooth contemporary lines, Chevrolet for having the balls to update the headlight treatment on the C6, Dodge for an outrageous Prowler and Viper........and Pontiac gives us a Monaro?????

"For once, just admit you don't know what your talking about. You'll feel better. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"

>>> Uhhh, yeah right.

Point out one area on this thread where I've said anything that was presented as fact and not opinion and in error including the quote from the GM exec. which you conveniently left out.

rabon008 · #28 12-22-2004, 10:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
I thought the quality was substandard for a 30k+ car... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT???? Where is the quality lacking at that price?

The Champ · #29 12-22-2004, 10:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
The split grille, stacked headlights,(65-67), wide stance was unmistakably Pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, last time I checked, the original 1964 Pontiac GTO had horizontal, not stacked headlights...

And the 68 - 74 GTO's didn't have stacked headlights either.

So once again, in a failed attempt to try and justify yourself, you are wrong in 8 out of 11 years - including your very own 1970 GTO...

If you like that darn retro Mustang so much, why don't you go buy one?

I'm a sick and tired of the whole retro discussion. I like old cars and I own old cars. I don't care for my new cars to look old.

If you like new cars to look old, that's your business.

rabon008 · #30 12-22-2004, 10:43 PM

Yeah...what Champ said. Buy the darn Mustang, get yourself a pair of bell bottoms, hang a peace symbol from your mirror and re-live the late sixties/early seventies. Nothing wrong with that, at all. I like my '04, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Mr_GTO · #31 12-23-2004, 03:11 AM

Nope, they never looked ANYTHING ALIKE. EVER!!!! -Baghdad Bob

red70goat · #32 12-23-2004, 11:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by The Champ:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:
The split grille, stacked headlights,(65-67), wide stance was unmistakably Pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Well, last time I checked, the original 1964 Pontiac GTO had horizontal, not stacked headlights...

And the 68 - 74 GTO's didn't have stacked headlights either.

So once again, in a failed attempt to try and justify yourself, you are wrong in 8 out of 11 years - including your very own 1970 GTO..."

>>> Uhhh Champ: from my post: ...."stacked headlights, (65-67 )" ....Can you read???? You certainly included it in my quote. I'm disappointed Champ. I though you would pick up on my "Dodge Prowler" comment. Designed and built by Dodge but released by Plymouth. Bob Lutz in all his genius when he was VP at Chrysler thought it would be a good idea to release the Prowler as a Plymouth to bolster Plymouths' stodgey image. The Prowler ceased production in 2002. Seems like Lutz has a habit of releasing good cars as something they are not. We'll see how long the GM Monaro lasts.

red70goat · #33 12-23-2004, 11:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
I thought the quality was substandard for a 30k+ car... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT???? Where is the quality lacking at that price? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said in a previous post, my opinion that the quality was substandard was just that: an opinion due to I only had one 04 to base it off of. The O4 I looked at and test drove was a performer in every way, but the finish had orange peel and some hair in it. I undertstand this was a problem on some of the early 04s but was later fixed.

red70goat · #34 12-23-2004, 11:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
I like my '04, and there's nothing wrong with that either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said to you in an earlier post: "The bottom line is if you like it that is all that matters. Enjoy." Most of the negative posts on this forum are directed to the folks at Beavis and LutzHead who read this and other forums as consumer input to product developement.

red70goat · #35 12-23-2004, 11:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...prix-1966a.jpg

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-gto-1966a.jpg

http://www.gtpworld.com/gtp_of_the_m...ember-2002.jpg

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/i...2003193611.jpg

Nope, they never looked ANYTHING ALIKE. EVER!!!! -Baghdad Bob

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad you agree with me. Your pictures comparing an older GP and and older GTO clearly illustrate their differences. Only someone with a very limited knowledge of Pontiacs would ever confuse an older GP with an older GTO. As I said in my previous post: "The older GP was a much bigger car than an older GTO," easily distinguishable even from a great distance. You should change your name. You obviously know little about Pontiacs.

red70goat · #36 12-23-2004, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by The Champ:

If you like new cars to look old, that's your business. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did I say I wanted a new GTO to look like old? And in a way it does look old. Very, very old. Pontiac has had that same grill treatment on nearly every car they've built for the past decade or so. The grill on a '92 GrandAm is nearly idnetical to the '04. They could have come up with something better for a new GTO, retro or not. Hopefully they will.

red70goat · #37 12-23-2004, 01:08 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Champ:

I'm a sick and tired of the whole retro discussion. (QUOTE]

As am I. I did make an effort to continue a thread on how the GM engine in the 04 is superior to an EVO, that displacememt is superior to the hp/L theory frequently argued by the tuner crowd, gave a couple of domestic examples including Pontiac to prove my point, a documented domestic vs import 500 hp. engine build up that basically annihilated the hp/L argument, and some actual hp/ci vs hp/L figures supporting how the LS1 / LS2 is the superior engine due in part to it's displacement. Go find that. I'm sure if you pick it apart enough you'll find something wrong with that as well.

rabon008 · #38 12-23-2004, 02:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...prix-1966a.jpg

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-gto-1966a.jpg

http://www.gtpworld.com/gtp_of_the_m...ember-2002.jpg

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/i...2003193611.jpg

Nope, they never looked ANYTHING ALIKE. EVER!!!! -Baghdad Bob

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad you agree with me. Your pictures comparing an older GP and and older GTO clearly illustrate their differences. Only someone with a very limited knowledge of Pontiacs would ever confuse an older GP with an older GTO. As I said in my previous post: "The older GP was a much bigger car than an older GTO," easily distinguishable even from a great distance. You should change your name. You obviously know little about Pontiacs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please "whatza", anyone can see the similarities. In fact, in these photos, the newer GTO is more clearly defined from the newer GP than is the '66 GTO from the '66 GP (other than color).

red70goat · #39 12-23-2004, 02:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...prix-1966a.jpg

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-gto-1966a.jpg

http://www.gtpworld.com/gtp_of_the_m...ember-2002.jpg

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/i...2003193611.jpg

Nope, they never looked ANYTHING ALIKE. EVER!!!! -Baghdad Bob

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad you agree with me. Your pictures comparing an older GP and and older GTO clearly illustrate their differences. Only someone with a very limited knowledge of Pontiacs would ever confuse an older GP with an older GTO. As I said in my previous post: "The older GP was a much bigger car than an older GTO," easily distinguishable even from a great distance. You should change your name. You obviously know little about Pontiacs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please "whatza", anyone can see the similarities... QUOTE]

True, there are some vague similarities. Anyone can see the huge obvious differences also, even from a distance. His analogy for comparing a 66-67 GP to a 66-67 GTO in referance to the 04 was a poor one. Pontiac may have designed the early model GTOs reflective of their existing product line, but they certianly made an effort to distinguish themselves for other manufacturers. That same effort, in my opinion, should have been made with a modern day GTO. Therefor, this vehicle will have to be sold on performance alone via accessble test drives and better marketing. Coasting on an iconic badge isn't going to cut it in 05.

red70goat · #40 12-23-2004, 03:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...prix-1966a.jpg

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-gto-1966a.jpg

http://www.gtpworld.com/gtp_of_the_m...ember-2002.jpg

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/i...2003193611.jpg

Nope, they never looked ANYTHING ALIKE. EVER!!!! -Baghdad Bob

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad you agree with me. Your pictures comparing an older GP and and older GTO clearly illustrate their differences. Only someone with a very limited knowledge of Pontiacs would ever confuse an older GP with an older GTO. As I said in my previous post: "The older GP was a much bigger car than an older GTO," easily distinguishable even from a great distance. You should change your name. You obviously know little about Pontiacs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please "whatza", anyone can see the similarities... QUOTE]

but they certianly made an effort to distinguish themselves for other manufacturers. QUOTE]

>>> FROM other manufacturers...you know what I meant...